STOP CALLING HIM AN UNARMED MAN!!!!!!

[Black92LX]

This is really pissing me off.
With the 3 detectives being acquitted in NYC. All the headlines and articles read something to the extent of 3 detectives acquitted in shooting of unarmed man.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HE HIT A POLICE CAR AND A POLICE OFFICER WITH IS CAR. HE WAS NOT UNARMED!!!!!!!!!!

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

This is why i'm not a cop. I seriously considered it after high school but there's just too much BS. It's getting to where a cop can't do his job and defend himself without it getting made into an excessive force issue.

[nskaats]

A car is definitely a deadly weapon. The court system would be calling it that if he had killed a cop with it.

The media always has to make someone out to be a fuggin victim. It's usually the wrong person. This is why I don't watch the news anymore, it's all a bunch of bull shit.

[fastone]

A car is definitely a deadly weapon. The court system would be calling it that if he had killed a cop with it.

The media always has to make someone out to be a fuggin victim. It's usually the wrong person. This is why I don't watch the news anymore, it's all a bunch of bull shit.

As for the media blowing stuff way out of what it really is, read this from Channel 5 news,

http://www.wlwt.com/news/15983197/detail.html

This is great, I was the medic on the ambulance, I was the first ambulance on the scene, I had both Aircare helo's coming because of what I was told on the radio, but Channel 5 heard I was to bring blood???? That was never ever said on the radio at all!!! Then Channel 5's helo was in the way when the guys I work with that were on the fire engine were trying to land Aircare for my patient, WAY TO GO CHANNEL 5!!:bigthumb

[nskaats]

Typical media BS man. I live out in Hebron, was on my way into Burlington on Limaburg when I saw the aircare helicopter.

Wanna talk about media BS? Dunno if you followed the story about the dentist and his wife that were murdered in Grant Co., the Bramlages. The media has completely destroyed every single detail of this story and it pisses me off to no end. Their son Russ was a friend of mine from high school. This country used to believe that you were innocent until proven guilty, the media wants to crucify the guy.

[bestracing]

Wanna talk about media BS? Dunno if you followed the story about the dentist and his wife that were murdered in Grant Co., the Bramlages. The media has completely destroyed every single detail of this story and it pisses me off to no end. Their son Russ was a friend of mine from high school. This country used to believe that you were innocent until proven guilty, the media wants to crucify the guy.

There hasn't been much in the enquire or post just that according to the police he admitted to the killings. Now it's just a matter of circumstances and why and they are not seeking the death penalty because the family doesn't want it. Can't say I blame them since this case has hurt a lot of people close to the family.

[PaulFiveOh]

He hit an unmarked police car, and an out of uniform officer.

[facemelter71]

He hit an unmarked police car, and an out of uniform officer.

I guess that makes it all better hu...

[ADaughen]

I guess that makes it all better hu...

I hope so! I do it all the time. :eek:

[PaulFiveOh]

I guess that makes it all better hu...

What in the fuck is the difference between me, parking my car in a manner that blocks yours, then shooting you....compared to.....a plain cloths cop who parks his unmarked car and blocks you in and starts shooting at you?

There is no difference, and your reaction would be the same.

[facemelter71]

What in the fuck is the difference between me, parking my car in a manner that blocks yours, then shooting you....compared to.....a plain cloths cop who parks his unmarked car and blocks you in and starts shooting at you?

There is no difference, and your reaction would be the same.

Im sure thats how it all went down.The criminal had a weapon,weather it be a screwdriver or a car.I would stop him by all means necessary.If the cop was plain clothed or not he is still a cop and never off duty.

[Mista Bone]

Someone pulls a gun on you (in New York mind you) without identifiy himself properly, you gonna stand around and ask questions?

[Aweasel]

Witnesses said that about 4 a.m., closing time, as Bell and his friends left the club, an argument broke out. Believing that one of Bell's friends, Joseph Guzman, was going to get a gun from Bell's car, one of the undercover detectives followed the men and called for backup.

What happened next was at the heart of the trial, prosecuted by the assistant district attorney in Queens.

Bell, Guzman and Trent Benefield got into the car, with Bell at the wheel. The detectives drew their weapons, said Guzman and Benefield, who testified that they never heard the plainclothes detectives identify themselves as police.

Bell was in a panic to get away from the armed men, his friends testified.

But the detectives thought Bell was trying to run down one of them, believed that their lives were in danger and started shooting, according to their lawyers.

A total of 50 bullets were fired by five NYPD officers. Only three were charged with crimes.

No gun was found near Bell or his friends.

If a couple of plainclothes cops come up to me with guns drawn at me and I didn't know they were cops then you can bet your ass I'm going to try to get out of there. I doubt this guy knowingly charged cops with his car. He wasn't some crip thug, dude was partying before he was to be married. Out of the blue he's going to take on 3 cops? Uh no. These cops were pumped. All of a sudden 2 black guys argue outside of a club and it's automatically going to turn into a drive-by shooting? This is why stereotypes are bad.

Something similar happened years ago with Amadou Diallo, guy is standing on his stoop, a few plainclothes officers come up in a taurus, they stop, get out and start shouting at him, thinking he's some serial rapist they were looking for, he turns to go back inside because A)4 regular looking guys come shouting at you B)you'd probably do the same thing. Anyway, the cops go crazy and waste him because they though he had a gun,it was his wallet in his hand.

[Black92LX]

He wasn't some crip thug, dude was partying before he was to be married. Out of the blue he's going to take on 3 cops? Uh no. These cops were pumped. All of a sudden 2 black guys argue outside of a club and it's automatically going to turn into a drive-by shooting? This is why stereotypes are bad.

.

Actually yes all 3 of them were thugs. All 3 had extensive records with prior weapons violations. As for the part about them being black I am going to take a guess that played zero in the shooting considering 2 of the 3 detectives that shot Bell were Black.

Please research things a little before making comments.
Also being in plain clothes they identified themselves as officers. If the Police tell you to stop you stop even if they are standing in their underpants with guns drawn (yes that has happened)

[PaulFiveOh]

Actually yes all 3 of them were thugs. All 3 had extensive records with prior weapons violations. As for the part about them being black I am going to take a guess that played zero in the shooting considering 2 of the 3 detectives that shot Bell were Black.

Please research things a little before making comments.

Also being in plain clothes they identified themselves as officers. If the Police tell you to stop you stop even if they are standing in their underpants with guns drawn (yes that has happened)

Can you back that up with data?

[Mista Bone]

and with the incidents of impersonating an officer...........

how about wedding joke gone bad?

Lets ask the driver.......sorry he's dead.

The cop in the mini-van fired 31 shots. I'm not sure but believe he was inside the vehicle.

[Black92LX]

It's a situation that sucks on all sides.
But in this case all evidence has shown that the officers were justified. Justified does not mean that the out come was a good one.

Here are some more detailed reports that help to lay things out a little better.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/12/11/nyregion/20061211_SHOOT_GRAPHIC.html
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/04/24/nyregion/20080424_BELL_GRAPHIC.html

Would any of you get into a confrontation at a club, then tell your friend to
"go get your gun"? Would anyone here then try to hit someone who identified
themselves as a police officer with your car? WOuld anyone here ram another
vehicle, TWICE? Would you then reach for something in the passenger compartment
of your car after all of that? With at least 4 guns pointed at you?

I really hope the answer is no.

The judge found the"victims" testimony to be false, at best. He found their
background to be criminal. He found their motives to be dubious (A huge payday
from NYPD if this went their way.)

When confronted with someone who has used deadly force 3 times in less than a minute
(Striking an officer with your car is considered attempted murder), then makes
a furtive move inside the vehicle, after stating that they had a gun...would
I fire my weapon at them? Damn right. Would I fire until the threat was neutralized?
Absolutely.

Officers are killed by a motor vehilce..often. It is a 3000 pound weapon.

Have any of the naysayers here considered what it is like to get hit by a car?
I have. To be honest, it scares me shitless. Having seen what damage vehicles
do to people, I want to avoid that. Period.

As far as the amount of rounds fired...9mm is patheticall lacking when it
comes to bonded vehicle glass or car doors. It is simply ineffective,
as evidenced by the "victim" that was hit 16 times and testified.

They fired until the threat was over. ALOT of rounds, but they did what
they did for self preservation, not with malice.

[PaulFiveOh]

Do you know if they were using 15 round clips....
as in...bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam

I mean fuck, even I could waste some one with 1 15 round clip

[k062693w]

Do you know if they were using 15 round clips....
as in...bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam

I mean fuck, even I could waste some one with 1 15 round clip


When you shake your head does it sound like a BB in a bathtub?? :rolleyes:

[PaulFiveOh]

When you shake your head does it sound like a BB in a bathtub?? :rolleyes:

Can you attempt to qualify your insult?

[DOPE3]

BB IN THE BATHTUB NOW THATS FUNNY RIGHT THERE

[Mista Bone]

Do you know if they were using 15 round clips....
as in...bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam

I mean fuck, even I could waste some one with 1 15 round clip

NYPD Spec Glock 19's, 12 lb trigger

15 round clips + 1 in the tube, reload, another 15 rounds = 31 shots

[PaulFiveOh]

Got ya. Glad you saw my point. I thought that 3 clips would be insane, 2 is not. IMO.

[Kid_Money]

He hit an unmarked police car, and an out of uniform officer.

And both other defendants testified that the cops never ordered them to stop, or identified themselves as cops. And how did the cops know that they had prior records? They didn't know who they were until after they shot at them. And it was alleged that they said to go get a gun. Nobody but the cops testified to that..

[Black92LX]

Do you know if they were using 15 round clips....
as in...bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam

I mean fuck, even I could waste some one with 1 15 round clip

as stated in my earlier post

"As far as the amount of rounds fired...9mm is patheticall lacking when it
comes to bonded vehicle glass or car doors. It is simply ineffective,
as evidenced by the "victim" that was hit 16 times and testified."

[Black92LX]

Can you back that up with data?

I already did. If you read the two articles that I posted it is mentioned in there.

[Black92LX]

And both other defendants testified that the cops never ordered them to stop, or identified themselves as cops. And how did the cops know that they had prior records? They didn't know who they were until after they shot at them. And it was alleged that they said to go get a gun. Nobody but the cops testified to that..

If you would have taken the time read the two articles that I linked prior you would find answers to the questions. But I will highlight some quite quickly.

Jean Nelson
Friend of Sean Bell’s at Club Kalua
Testified that Sean Bell made mention of taking a gun from Fabio

Also Fabio Coicou made mention in initial interviews made mentions of using the word "gat" in the argument with Sean Bell. BUt then during cross examination denied it.

Joseph Guzman who was wounded in the shooting spent 5 years in prison from Drug Trafficking.

William Rudnick the EMT that treated Mr. Guzman on the scene testified that Mr Guzman stated “Why did the police shoot my friend?” suggesting he knew the plain clothed detectives were the police.

Anthony South the first journalist on the scene testified that he clearly saw a badge on the plain clothes officers.

Put probably the largest nail in the coffins of those that were shot was the actions of their buddy Trent Benefield who was wounded in the shooting as well.
He testified to one story that was completely different than that of which he originally stated. When confronted with this discrepancy he testified that he made his original version up.

As for the prior records that importance came in during the court case it goes to witness credibility.

This is by no means a clear cut case. But with all the fact and evidences brought before a judge in a court of law they were acquitted.

And any way you slice it Sean Bell was not unarmed he happened to have a 3,000 pound nissan instead of a firearm.

[Kid_Money]

If you would have taken the time read the two articles that I linked prior you would find answers to the questions. But I will highlight some quite quickly.


Joseph Guzman who was wounded in the shooting spent 5 years in prison from Drug Trafficking.

William Rudnick the EMT that treated Mr. Guzman on the scene testified that Mr Guzman stated “Why did the police shoot my friend?” suggesting he knew the plain clothed detectives were the police.

And any way you slice it Sean Bell was not unarmed he happened to have a 3,000 pound nissan instead of a firearm.

The cops didn't know that when they started shooting. He could have been anyone for all they knew. And telling someone to go get a gun warrants shooting them how? The police said that there was no gun found on any of the victims, or in the car. So either the were just talking about a gun, or (as I believe) the cops made uf the story about a gun to cover up why they were so wreckless. These guys fire 50 shots a car a at crowded club? Not excessive at all...

By the time the EMT's got there, I'm sure they knew it was cops who shot them. So it's understandable why he would make that statement.

And they were shooting at them while they were trying to get away. You think that maybe he was shot and that's why he hit the cop? And their van? I'm sure it's easy to drive through a barrage of bullets and not hit anyone or anything...

[DeckerEnt]

If you would have taken the time read the two articles that I linked prior you would find answers to the questions. But I will highlight some quite quickly.

Jean Nelson
Friend of Sean Bell’s at Club Kalua
Testified that Sean Bell made mention of taking a gun from Fabio

Also Fabio Coicou made mention in initial interviews made mentions of using the word "gat" in the argument with Sean Bell. BUt then during cross examination denied it.

Joseph Guzman who was wounded in the shooting spent 5 years in prison from Drug Trafficking.

William Rudnick the EMT that treated Mr. Guzman on the scene testified that Mr Guzman stated “Why did the police shoot my friend?” suggesting he knew the plain clothed detectives were the police.

Anthony South the first journalist on the scene testified that he clearly saw a badge on the plain clothes officers.

Put probably the largest nail in the coffins of those that were shot was the actions of their buddy Trent Benefield who was wounded in the shooting as well.
He testified to one story that was completely different than that of which he originally stated. When confronted with this discrepancy he testified that he made his original version up.

As for the prior records that importance came in during the court case it goes to witness credibility.

This is by no means a clear cut case. But with all the fact and evidences brought before a judge in a court of law they were acquitted.

And any way you slice it Sean Bell was not unarmed he happened to have a 3,000 pound nissan instead of a firearm.

That is very well said.
Keith

[bobtsgt]

I wish we could go back to the old skool police days. Back in a simpler time....

[Black92LX]

And telling someone to go get a gun warrants shooting them how?

I never said that it did. You are leaving out a very important part of the story.

SEAN BELL HIT ONE OF THE OFFICERS WITH HIS NISSAN ALTIMA (a weapon) HE THEN RAMMED AN UNDER COVER POLICE VAN TWICE. He then made furtive movements inside the vehicle. Before they started shooting. Numerous witness account for this that had nothing to do with the Police or Sean Bell.

that is 3 separate acts of deadly force by Sean Bell Prior to him being shot.

One does not have to be armed with a gun to be shot at. The officers had reason to believe the subjects were armed with a gun. Comments were made, the officers heard it as well as the subject Sean Bell was arguing with stated he made mention of a gat. That is why the whole situation started.

The officers ordered Sean Bell to stop. He does not he hits an officer with his car he then proceeds to ram an under cover police vehicle twice.

DEADLY FORCE IS WARRANTED wether or not there is a gun!

Again I wish you would actually go back and read the articles that I posted and actually bring facts to the table. I am getting tired of repeating myself and referencing the articles. They are very well written and explain the situation as best as possible. The article speaks positives and negatives for both sides, but what it boils down to in the end is which side has the most evidence on their side. In this case it clearly fall on the sides of the officers. As I have stated that this is a very grey shooting but the fact of the matter is no shooting is going to be black and white.
But the evidence was collected from all sides and guess what it sides with that of the officers. The "victims" which I have a very hard time calling them that all had different stories and one even admitted to fabricating the original story that he gave police. Why would anyone especially a so called victim fabricate a story given to police?? Only reason I can think of is they have something to hide.


These guys fire 50 shots a car a at crowded club? Not excessive at all...

Once again I you have failed to read the facts that I have brought to the table so I will point them out again.


"As far as the amount of rounds fired...9mm is patheticall lacking when it
comes to bonded vehicle glass or car doors. It is simply ineffective,
as evidenced by the "victim" that was hit 16 times and testified."

Law Enforcement Officers are trained to ELIMINATE the threat. Eliminating the threat states no mention of how many rounds need to be fired. The human body in and of itself is a very resilient add bonded vehicle glass to the situation and vehicle body panels. It is going to take far more than 1 round to stop the threat.

Kid_Money that is my final response to you. I have done nothing but provide you resources and testimonial evidence to back up everything I have posted. If you are not willing to look into it more yourself before you spout some silly questions that I have already answered at least once. Please stop taking up space in this thread.

[PaulFiveOh]

Black92LX - I think the problem is that you are using those articles in the news paper as "proof" of your point.
What you have to remember is that those articles are bias one way or another and someone with an oppinion wrote it.

I am not contesting any point you are making, just giving you advice on how I would attempt to "proof" something in general.

Whether or not there is a bias in the story is irrelevant, what is relevant is that if I think there is, your arguments are with out merit, at least to me. It's all in the perspective when using an editorial. Just because you KNOW something to be true (the article(s)), does not mean that I know it to also be true.

Unfortunately, in the eye of this trained "convincer", there is no way to prove your point using logic and hard data in this particular situation.

Agree or disagree?

[Black92LX]

Paul those articles are taken from the actual testimony and court room proceedings. Of course there is going to be bias but the fact of the matter is those article were developed directly from what was testified and shown in court. And the bias originated in the court room. It's the judges job to break through the bias that in inherent in every court case. If there was no bias there would be no need for a case, correct?

If you read them they are clearly there is very little bias toward either side. Some of the testimony look very good on the part of the "victims" but the vast majority does not.

If you notice in this article there is no by line:http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2006/12/11/nyregion/20061211_SHOOT_GRAPHIC.html
It is taken directly from NYPD Public Record Documents that were presented in the court room.

And this article was taken directly from the testimony of those that testified in court.http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/04/24/nyregion/20080424_BELL_GRAPHIC.html

These are by no means editorial they present the facts and evidence that were presented in court.
If the facts I have presented have no merit please bring to the table something that contradicts anything I have stated.

[fastone]

For all the cops and firemen on here, we know what was done, and we know why it was done. But i hate to say this to everyone else on here. IT IS EASY AS HELL to sit in your little cozy world and say this is what should have happened, or it happened this way, or I would have done this, we get your ass back in your fish bowl and look out. YOU WERE NOT THERE!!!! so you can't say how you would have handled it. I know in the fire stuff we have to make split second decisions, these normally only endanger us, but cops might endanger other people...... that is something the cop will have to live with for the rest of his life. But to sit here and say this or that is stupid, we were not there, we dont know all the facts and im sure no one will ever know all the facts!!! Sorry Im having a bad day here, but this crap here is stupid! One last thing, I know many cops, and if you charge at them in your car with the intent to hurt or kill them, that is assult with a DEADLY WEAPON!!! I bet your ass, I have a CCDW, and if something happened and you charged me with your car and I thought I was going to die, my 15+1 clip would be empty too!!!!:flipoff:

[Kid_Money]

What was the motive of Sean Bell to just ram an officer and the unmarked cop car? Do you think that maybe the fact that plain clothes police officers pulled guns on him? have you ever been in a car when someone is yelling at you? Kinda hard to understand what they are saying huh? No, lets say, you add to it that they were drunk, probably really drunk, and just in an arguement. Now, you look around and 4 people with guns are rushing your car. You think he was like, man, I bet those guys are cops..

[Black92LX]

What was the motive of Sean Bell to just ram an officer and the unmarked cop car? Do you think that maybe the fact that plain clothes police officers pulled guns on him? have you ever been in a car when someone is yelling at you? Kinda hard to understand what they are saying huh? No, lets say, you add to it that they were drunk, probably really drunk, and just in an arguement. Now, you look around and 4 people with guns are rushing your car. You think he was like, man, I bet those guys are cops..

I would be willing to bet that his motive was to cause bodily harm and possibly death to the individual that he struck. Which would allow the use of deadly force even if the person was not an officer.

So you are saying because they were drunk their actions are OK????????? Let's just blame alcohol for most of our problems in society no need for self responsibility.Hopefully I am misunderstanding your point with that comment but if not. Sadly, you are going farther and farther off the deep end with every post you make.

[Kid_Money]

His motive was probably to hurt the guy who had a gun pointed at him. And I'm not using the alcohol to relieve him of responsibilty, only saying that made his judgement worse. Probably a little harder to understand what was going on, and that they were police officers.

[98stangv6]

I am a criminal justice student at NKU, just transfered about a year ago from EKU. I have been on a myriad of ride alongs and let me tell you, you have to be ready for anything to happen. You can have a 90 year old lady reach into her purse and pull a gun on you, you never know. If these men were talking about a gun and actually did reach into the console for something, you can bet that the majority of people will assume gun and not wait to find out. Also, about the 50 rounds. At EKU I did this situation simulation where it was a big screen and a walk through scenerio and someone pulls a gun on you and it actually shoots nylon balls back. The situation was in a hotel room, arresting a man, his wife on the bed pulled a gun and instinctively I fired 7 shots into/around her without thinking twice or even realizing it and the guy I was with emptied his "clip". I have the utmost respect for these men and what they have to face each and every single day.

[2-8-1]

Do you know if they were using 15 round clips....
as in...bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam bam drop clip reload bam

I mean fuck, even I could waste some one with 1 15 round clip

They are not FUCKING CLIPS. If your gonna try to argue an intellectual point, know what something is fucking called. They are MAGAZINES. Clips are used to load magazines, Magazines store ammunition for the weapon that is firing said ammunition. A pistol uses a Magazine. An M1 Garand Uses a Clip.

Sorry, just a HUGE peeve.

98StangV6, I'm currently at EKU now, in the Business and Technology College. They are all about Law Enforcement.

[98stangv6]

I miss it down there. The new business building looks pretty nice! :bigthumb

[PaulFiveOh]

They are not FUCKING CLIPS. If your gonna try to argue an intellectual point, know what something is fucking called.



You my friend, are an idiot.

You see, some one like your self has what I call "Technical Knowledge", and that is all you have.
You can't bring any thing to the table, so you simply attack my vernacular, because it is the only solid point you can make. Sure you know how a gun works, but you can not litigate your self out of parking ticket if you had to.

Do not attempt to insult me by saying "Trying to argue an intellectual point." You will fail, every time.

To any one in this thread who offers their thoughts about the situation in contrast or comparison to mine, it is irrelevant if I mistook the word 'Clip' for 'Magazine' because it does not matter, they know what I meant and offered insight / rebuttal on my point. They did not choose to say "DONT TRY TO HAVE AN INTELLECTUAL CONVERSATION BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW A CLIP FROM A MAG..."

Thanks.

[Mista Bone]

Is that like calling a anti-roll bar, a sway bar?

Right, Paul wins here.

[Kid_Money]

Is that like calling a anti-roll bar, a sway bar?

Right, Paul wins here.

I hate it when people try to correct you for something everyone knows is a common thing to say.. Whether it is the right word or not, everyone knew what you meant..

[Mista Bone]

shock or strut?

Damper!

[higgy87]

Jeremy, Thanks for being the voice of reason.


:bigthumb



This is really pissing me off.
With the 3 detectives being acquitted in NYC. All the headlines and articles read something to the extent of 3 detectives acquitted in shooting of unarmed man.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD HE HIT A POLICE CAR AND A POLICE OFFICER WITH IS CAR. HE WAS NOT UNARMED!!!!!!!!!!

[Black92LX]

ok folks no need for personal attacks.

[2-8-1]

You my friend, are an idiot.

You see, some one like your self has what I call "Technical Knowledge", and that is all you have.
You can't bring any thing to the table, so you simply attack my vernacular, because it is the only solid point you can make. Sure you know how a gun works, but you can not litigate your self out of parking ticket if you had to.

Do not attempt to insult me by saying "Trying to argue an intellectual point." You will fail, every time.

To any one in this thread who offers their thoughts about the situation in contrast or comparison to mine, it is irrelevant if I mistook the word 'Clip' for 'Magazine' because it does not matter, they know what I meant and offered insight / rebuttal on my point. They did not choose to say "DONT TRY TO HAVE AN INTELLECTUAL CONVERSATION BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW A CLIP FROM A MAG..."

Thanks.

Hmmm....

I actually had a very thoughtful, and very contemptuous response waiting, but I am going to take the higher road. I did not mean to insult, I was just enjoying the irony of the subject matter and the fact that you used slang (not vernacular) to stress your point. I ranted, in a rant thread.


I miss it down there. The new business building looks pretty nice!

Yeah, Stratton is really nice, have you been inside of it?


shock or strut?

Damper!

You mean pre-pressurized cylindrical piston? lol