Money HUNGRY Doctors!!!!

[NaomiDstangLvr]

Sooooooooo....I went to my OB/GYN today for my appointment and gave them a paper to fill out so I can go on short term disability when I have the baby. You know what they say to me? We have a fifteen dollar charge to fill it out, will you pay now or when you pick it up? WTF??? Why should I pay you guys that to fill out ONE SHEET? I don't see how they get away with stuff like this? Isn't there some government protection against this?? It's bad enough the money situation that the family is in right now for you (and they do know about our situation with Chad etc.) to tell me they charge that for someone to sit there and just fill out a sheet. Makes me so mad!! :mad:

[87stangbbb]

my wifes docter charges 20

[chadomac]

They all got there hands out... on a side note my doctor did not charge me to fill mine out..
and remember naomi they wanted us to pay for the delivery of the baby 5 months ago they are JACKASSES THERE!!!!!!!

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

The mrs was watching Oprah the other day and she was talking to these women from Denmark i believe...they're said to be the happiest people in the world. They said they pay a percentage of their income to taxes and it varies depending on your income, and that money gets you 100% health care and 100% paid education in any field you wish. She said people there are happy because everyone does what they want for a living and everyone is perfectly healthy, and there's no fear of losing your job because if you do their gov will help you get a new one AND pay up to 90% of your wages for FOUR YEARS until you get a new job. She was a docter herself and said that the doctors there don't work to be rich, they do it for the passion of helping the sick.

Now why the hell is our health care system so F'ed up? :confused:

[chadomac]

doctors here work to be rich


here this looks right ^^^^^^

[Ranger50]

What's wrong for a super specialized field with absolutely the highest risk out there to be one of the highest paid? How much is a human life really worth? In physical sciences, maybe $2. In the soft or psychological sciences, I don't believe you can put a price on it because it means something different to everybody.

Do I agree that the charge is "wrong", sure do. But coming from an employer's standpoint, why should it be free for my employee to fill out your paperwork and be taking that time away from doing their job that I am paying for? And this goes for all fields of employment and yourself too. Should I not be compensated?

Brian

[05yellowgt]

The mrs was watching Oprah the other day and she was talking to these women from Denmark i believe...they're said to be the happiest people in the world. They said they pay a percentage of their income to taxes and it varies depending on your income, and that money gets you 100% health care and 100% paid education in any field you wish. She said people there are happy because everyone does what they want for a living and everyone is perfectly healthy, and there's no fear of losing your job because if you do their gov will help you get a new one AND pay up to 90% of your wages for FOUR YEARS until you get a new job. She was a docter herself and said that the doctors there don't work to be rich, they do it for the passion of helping the sick.

Now why the hell is our health care system so F'ed up? :confused:
That's all well and good if you are prepared to pay up to 63% income tax and a 25% sales tax on top of that. Denmark and other nations have "free" healthcare because they pay out the ass in taxes for it.

[chadomac]

Do I agree that the charge is "wrong", sure do. But coming from an employer's standpoint, why should it be free for my employee to fill out your paperwork and be taking that time away from doing their job that I am paying for? And this goes for all fields of employment and yourself too. Should I not be compensated?

Brian

this is the mentality that got us where we are at now. it is not free i am paying you for your services in the first place. she is going to have a c section they know she wont be able to work after it so then you are going to charge me to fill out paper work (3 lines is all it was )to tell them i am unable to work because of surgery? i choose to come to you and not another doctor as there is a ton of OB/GYN out there. i could of took my money elsewhere and not to you and from an employer's stand point i should give my paitent the best service i can and do what i can to make them happy.... i had the same paperwork filled out when i had the surgery to remove my cancer and they did not charge me... i guess it is just the doctor and the quality of his service. But with this place it is all about the MONEY.

[87stangbbb]

this is the mentality that got us where we are at now. it is not free i am paying you for your services in the first place. she is going to have a c section they know she wont be able to work after it so then you are going to charge me to fill out paper work (3 lines is all it was )to tell them i am unable to work because of surgery? i choose to come to you and not another doctor as there is a ton of OB/GYN out there. i could of took my money elsewhere and not to you and from an employer's stand point i should give my paitent the best service i can and do what i can to make them happy.... But it is all about the MONEY.
come on you know people always have a good reason to justify ripping someone off

[k062693w]

That's all well and good if you are prepared to pay up to 63% income tax and a 25% sales tax on top of that. Denmark and other nations have "free" healthcare because they pay out the ass in taxes for it.

I would in a heartbeat, But you also failed to mention the amnount that their minimum wage is ... when I was in Norway 20+ years ago, The people working in fast food were making $40,000+ a year !!! Not to mention free education ... So taking the taxes into consideration, It works out to be about the same as it is here ... But they get FREE Healthcare and Education !!

And back on topic !!! LOL every Dr. I have ever been to has a sign that clearly states that there is a charge for any forms that need to be filled out by the office !!!

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

That's all well and good if you are prepared to pay up to 63% income tax and a 25% sales tax on top of that. Denmark and other nations have "free" healthcare because they pay out the ass in taxes for it.


Yeah it's not a perfect system. She said the average person pays between 30% and 50%. To me that did seem extreme but the added benefit of 100% paid education almost seems like it'd be worth it. I don't see why we can't at least find some kind of middle ground.


Oh wait, yes i can. It's called capitalism. My bad :lol:

[05yellowgt]

I would in a heartbeat, But you also failed to mention the amnount that their minimum wage is ... when I was in Norway 20+ years ago, The people working in fast food were making $40,000+ a year !!! Not to mention free education ... So taking the taxes into consideration, It works out to be about the same as it is here ... But they get FREE Healthcare and Education !!

And back on topic !!! LOL every Dr. I have ever been to has a sign that clearly states that there is a charge for any forms that need to be filled out by the office !!!
They do make more money on paper than we do here. They have to. The cost of a regular value meal in Norway is about 120 Kroner, or $20 US.


Sorry for taking this off topic.

I'm sure you already had to pay a co-pay for your doctors visit and your insurance pays for the rest of the visit at a discounted rate because of their negotiated in network fees, so the fee to fill out the paperwork just an attempt on the doctors part to make a little extra money. A lot of doctors are seen as greedy, they do have enormous overhead to deal with these days too.

[Ranger50]

this is the mentality that got us where we are at now. it is not free i am paying you for your services in the first place. she is going to have a c section they know she wont be able to work after it so then you are going to charge me to fill out paper work (3 lines is all it was )to tell them i am unable to work because of surgery? i choose to come to you and not another doctor as there is a ton of OB/GYN out there. i could of took my money elsewhere and not to you and from an employer's stand point i should give my paitent the best service i can and do what i can to make them happy.... i had the same paperwork filled out when i had the surgery to remove my cancer and they did not charge me... i guess it is just the doctor and the quality of his service. But with this place it is all about the MONEY.

So that begs this question: why not just move doctors? Sounds to me close enough to the beginning to have the records transferred and not miss a beat with proper medical care.

Or why not use that same argument with them that you want to complain to me with, "I am already paying to have this service done, accommodate me."? It may take a few ruffling of the feathers to get the desired outcome, but in the end you "should" have what you desire, either included costs or a "free" doctor.

Brian

[chadomac]

So that begs this question: why not just move doctors? Sounds to me close enough to the beginning to have the records transferred and not miss a beat with proper medical care.

Or why not use that same argument with them that you want to complain to me with, "I am already paying to have this service done, accommodate me."? It may take a few ruffling of the feathers to get the desired outcome, but in the end you "should" have what you desire, either included costs or a "free" doctor.

Brian

she went today without me so when i go back friday i plan to do just that. we would move doctors but at this point (she is due for the c section feb 4) it is to late. on a side note they were terrible all the way through this pregnancy buy the time she seen it she was 8 months along ...woman what can you do :rolleyes:

[cstreu1026]

I'm with you Brian. I don't necessarily agree with the fee but it's easy to complain and call them greedy when you don't know what is really involved with being a doctor and running a medical practice. I have been around doctors offices for a very long time since my Mom managed medical offices for more than 20 years...OB/Gyn, pediactrics, optometry, and podiatry. I have seen what it takes to make an office function and believe most doctors have to work their asses off to make money. Those that don't work hard don't stay in business.

For example...Say a doctor charges $100 for an office visit. The patient pays a $20 co-pay, the insurance company may reimburse the doctor for another $50. That other $30 gets written off. Now out of that $70 the doc has to pay rent or a mortgage, utilities, materials, a medical assistant that makes $15/hour, a receptionist who may make $12/hour, and someone to deal with the insurance and make the office function that makes $15/hour. Oh yeah, don't forget the malpractice insurance. Maybe it's just me but I don't really think there is a huge profit margin there. Now with any luck they can keep the schedule full and do that 4 times and hour, make a profit, and in 20 years pay off the 6 figure school loan they have from the education required for the job.

[cstreu1026]

The mrs was watching Oprah the other day and she was talking to these women from Denmark i believe...they're said to be the happiest people in the world. They said they pay a percentage of their income to taxes and it varies depending on your income, and that money gets you 100% health care and 100% paid education in any field you wish. She said people there are happy because everyone does what they want for a living and everyone is perfectly healthy, and there's no fear of losing your job because if you do their gov will help you get a new one AND pay up to 90% of your wages for FOUR YEARS until you get a new job. She was a docter herself and said that the doctors there don't work to be rich, they do it for the passion of helping the sick.

Now why the hell is our health care system so F'ed up? :confused:

Could they be happy because of all the free anti-depressants they are taking?

[chadomac]

For example...Say a doctor charges $100 for an office visit. The patient pays a $20 co-pay, the insurance company may reimburse the doctor for another $50. That other $30 gets written off. Now out of that $70 the doc has to pay rent or a mortgage, utilities, materials, a medical assistant that makes $15/hour, a receptionist who may make $12/hour, and someone to deal with the insurance and make the office function that makes $15/hour. Oh yeah, don't forget the malpractice insurance. Maybe it's just me but I don't really think there is a huge profit margin there. Now with any luck they can keep the schedule full and do that 4 times and hour, make a profit, and in 20 years pay off the 6 figure school loan they have from the education required for the job.

wow i am glad that it is used for that and not that new $150 thousand dollar 2010 Mercedes-Benz CL550 that both him and his wife have.

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Could they be happy because of all the free anti-depressants they are taking?

LOL, probably doesn't hurt. I think it's more that they're all healthy and doing jobs they WANT to do instead of like me working at a crappy job making crappy money and being sick but reluctant to go to the doc because i don't want the bill.

On the flip side, if i could just stroll up and get medicine, and tomorrow go to my dream job that i went to FREE college to get, and i could do my job without fear of being laid off again because i knew the gov' had my back for 4 years until i got another job...well i probably wouldn't need the antidepressants.

I think the huge income tax thing isn't much of a big deal to their society because their way of life is just different. They said 1/3 of the country doesn't own cars...they ride bicycles. They showed this lady's house (who's a doctor mind you) and it was about the size of a larger than average local apartment. She went on saying that making a fortune just isn't as important to them because they don't have/want as much material possessions as Americans do.

[Waffles]

Sooooooooo....I went to my OB/GYN today for my appointment and gave them a paper to fill out so I can go on short term disability when I have the baby. You know what they say to me? We have a fifteen dollar charge to fill it out, will you pay now or when you pick it up? WTF??? Why should I pay you guys that to fill out ONE SHEET? I don't see how they get away with stuff like this? Isn't there some government protection against this?? It's bad enough the money situation that the family is in right now for you (and they do know about our situation with Chad etc.) to tell me they charge that for someone to sit there and just fill out a sheet. Makes me so mad!! :mad:

"Government protection":lol:



The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'


You guys are all about to see how well this government run stuff works. I'm trying to get my stuff done before it's "free."

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

^^ That's true....maybe i don't want their free health care or education...lol

[jeremy23]

wow i am glad that it is used for that and not that new $150 thousand dollar 2010 Mercedes-Benz CL550 that both him and his wife have.

Let me ask this. If you work 24/7 365 a year, because OB/GYNs are available at anytime they are needed for their patient or at least the good ones, wouldnt you want to spend your hard earned money on something nice? No offense truely I see both sides of this. I am a newly graduated resident physician and because of that people think Im making or will be making great money. That isnt the case in todays world. Today most come out of medical school with greater than $175k of debt and because of federal regulations have to begin paying that back after the 6month grace period. On a salary of say $2300(average after taxes)a month, I personally have monthly payments of around $1800 just for the medical school loans for 10yrs. That does not include any from undergraduate education. So for anyone in the medical field, we start off in a deep hole. By the time that debt is taken care of, its time to begin putting something back for retirement.
That being said I know its costly to have to pay to get paperwork done, but thats not just with physicians. Any business charges fees to complete paperwork, colleges, lawyers, insurance companies, anyone where someone has to take time from their regular responsibilities to complete the forms. I personally understand why also, I have had to sit and complete stacks of these forms for many patients of mine already and it has kept me in the office for additional 3hrs on numerous occasions. The other thing to look at is that your wifes job is requiring it to be filled out. Why? Because they dont believe she needs that time off post-partum?
Lastly about "physicians doing the work to help the sick", thats pretty much what medicaid and medicare are! As someone already stated if the visit is billed at $100, with the patient having a copay of $10-20, a lot of times with those plans the physician may only get reimbursed for %30 if he/she is lucky. A lot of times its just free healthcare. These guys also have huge expenses, not just primary overhead, but malpractice which they are required to carry. A lot with yearly expense being greater than $150k solely for the malpractice a year.

[cstreu1026]

wow i am glad that it is used for that and not that new $150 thousand dollar 2010 Mercedes-Benz CL550 that both him and his wife have.

And all it takes is one mistake (he or she is human after all) and that all goes away. Doctors work very hard to get where they are and specialists like OB/Gyn take on huge amounts of risks. I am sure there are plenty of of doctors in it for the money first and the patients second. On the other hand I know several very good doctors who don't make any more or even as much as most middle management corporate types.

[thecollector]

^^ That's true....maybe i don't want their free health care or education...lol

No service the governement has ever provided has been free of charge. Someone has/is paying dearly for it.

If I want health insurance I'll buy health insurance.

If I want to go to college I'll pony up the money or get a loan and go.

It is not my responsibility to pay for schooling or healthcare for you or anyone else, it is your own. If you want something work for it and get it don't ask for a hand out, or expect others to finance it for you.

If the government should provide healthcare and education what else should they provide?
Food?
Clothes?
Housing?
Spouses?
Thoughts?
Happiness?

Imagine how efficient all these services will be provided...

I am convinced more and more that this country has become to lazy to sustain itself, when will people draw the line stand up and do something for themselves?

I want to keep as much control as possible of how my money is spent. I don't need the government making decisions for me. I also don't want to pay for things I don't want or need.

I bet people would find jobs way quicker than 4 years if their government didn't pay them to sit on their A$$e$. It's amazing what you'll do when your hungry.


Thomas Jefferson would roll over in his grave if he saw where were headed.....

Sorry for the rant, but almost every doctor charges for the forms, as mentioned above company time costs money. When I would repair a truck with a driveability problem I would still charge the customer diagnoses even if I was the one getting the business putting in the new injector. It's all about the cost of your/their time.

As a side note my doctor drives a jeep grand cherokee. His wife (an RN) sports a late model buick.

[MrsAPE]

Nice post Jeremy. Well said. What does it matter what the doctor drives? So he has something nice. Not up to us to decide what he spends his money on. If he makes it he can spend it. Mustangs are expensive too even the cheap ones!!

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

For the record i'm not asking for a handout...i just think the lower-middle class people like myself should be able to afford health care. I'm spending 20% of my income to have health care "just in case" me or my family needs it. When you compare it to Denmark who's paying just a tad more of their income and they get 100% health and education...i feel screwed especially since i only get sick maybe once a year. How about all the coverage i pay for goes into a saving account so that if i don't need the coverage i get it back or it goes towards the bills when i do need it?


By the way, it's simply not as easy as just "get up and get a job". Trust me, if it were then i'd be making more than i do. Tell that to the people in Wilmington.

[Ranger50]

For the record i'm not asking for a handout...i just think the lower-middle class people like myself should be able to afford health care. I'm spending 20% of my income to have health care "just in case" me or my family needs it. When you compare it to Denmark who's paying just a tad more of their income and they get 100% health and education...i feel screwed especially since i only get sick maybe once a year. How about all the coverage i pay for goes into a saving account so that if i don't need the coverage i get it back or it goes towards the bills when i do need it?


By the way, it's simply not as easy as just "get up and get a job". Trust me, if it were then i'd be making more than i do. Tell that to the people in Wilmington.

Are you taking an employer provided insurance plan?

If you are, get out and shop for your OWN and on what YOU want. If more people would HAVE to shop for their own insurance, it wouldn't be a nightmare cost.

Brian

[djom1cincy]

For the record i'm not asking for a handout...i just think the lower-middle class people like myself should be able to afford health care. I'm spending 20% of my income to have health care "just in case" me or my family needs it. When you compare it to Denmark who's paying just a tad more of their income and they get 100% health and education...i feel screwed especially since i only get sick maybe once a year. How about all the coverage i pay for goes into a saving account so that if i don't need the coverage i get it back or it goes towards the bills when i do need it?


By the way, it's simply not as easy as just "get up and get a job". Trust me, if it were then i'd be making more than i do. Tell that to the people in Wilmington.

You say your not asking for a hand out and you may not be. Instead you cry on here about spending 20 percent on health care. I spent the same percentage last year. 15000 dollars I spent on coverage not counting what I spent on co pay. You ask why it can't go into a account and you get it back if you don't use it. Do you get money back from your car insurance every year if you don't have a wreck? I don't. Let's say you spend 10k this year on insurance. You get some major illness. You spend 6 months in the hospital and the bill cost half a million. Are you willing to give the insurance more money because they didn't plan on you getting sick and it costing them that much money. I don't think your going to offer up any extra cash out off the kindness of your heart for putting them out that much. Its a risk for you the insurance company to even cover you. They are betting that you won't get sick and have no payouts. Sometimes they are right and big winners and other times it bites them hard.
Its sucks paying for health or car insurance but its nice when you need it.

[87stangbbb]

^^^agreed

[NaomiDstangLvr]

I wasn't expecting these comments. A lot of people actually on the doctor's side?!? I think it's ridiculous that they can charge whatever they want. And no, I didn't see any sign saying that they charge to fill out any kind of forms for their patients...

[cstreu1026]

I don't think I have ever seen a sign in any doctor's office or hospital spelling out what they do and don't charge for. Look at it from another prospective, they are filling out paperwork for short term disability that expeoses them to more liability. I am not saying you're claim isn't valid but what if someone is less than honest in their claim and it would blows back on the doctor's office. They would have to pay an attorney to defend them which cost money.

[87stangbbb]

there really is a sign up at my wife's doctors office

[306Power]

I wasn't expecting these comments. A lot of people actually on the doctor's side?!? I think it's ridiculous that they can charge whatever they want. And no, I didn't see any sign saying that they charge to fill out any kind of forms for their patients...

People in this country are always on the Businesses side, espicially Gung-Ho Republicans until something like this hits home to them. Their on the businesses side until their loved one gets mistreated or ripped off. I agree with you it's ridiculous.

[jlt2006]

:popcorn:

[k062693w]

It's funny how when a Dr. saves a life or someone has an emergency, Nobody ever complains about the bill !!! But when it's something that seems insignificant to the patient they Bitch about it !!!

[djom1cincy]

If I'm at work doing something and someone needs help on a different job. I stop and give them a hand for 15 to 30 minutes. That job is getting charged half a hour. If it takes 40 minutes then it gets charged a hour. Walking into a doctors office and having someone stop what they are working on for 15 minutes to fill out some paperwork is no different. If they are working on something then they get paid for that work. Sucks? Yes. Its if it happen to me would I be pissed? Yes but I know that's how it works. I know because I've had surgery twice in five years. Torn ankle ligaments and cancer. Both times I went on disability and had to pay the fee for the paperwork.

[Ranger50]

I wasn't expecting these comments. A lot of people actually on the doctor's side?!? I think it's ridiculous that they can charge whatever they want. And no, I didn't see any sign saying that they charge to fill out any kind of forms for their patients...

Huh? Mechanics do it anyday and everyday. Especially since there is not a guarantee that you will have it fixed then and there. Ever wonder why prices vary so greatly on the same repair? It's because they can charge whatever they feel like to you the customer. No difference here, it is just a different profession.

JMO,
Brian

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

You say your not asking for a hand out and you may not be. Instead you cry on here about spending 20 percent on health care. I spent the same percentage last year. 15000 dollars I spent on coverage not counting what I spent on co pay. You ask why it can't go into a account and you get it back if you don't use it. Do you get money back from your car insurance every year if you don't have a wreck? I don't. Let's say you spend 10k this year on insurance. You get some major illness. You spend 6 months in the hospital and the bill cost half a million. Are you willing to give the insurance more money because they didn't plan on you getting sick and it costing them that much money. I don't think your going to offer up any extra cash out off the kindness of your heart for putting them out that much. Its a risk for you the insurance company to even cover you. They are betting that you won't get sick and have no payouts. Sometimes they are right and big winners and other times it bites them hard.
Its sucks paying for health or car insurance but its nice when you need it.

Yeah that's all true...and i have had brain surgery so i've needed the coverage i have.. but there's still plenty of people who pay out the ass and get nothing in return because they're never ill. Car insurance is the same way. I've paid into it for 15 years and never got a penny back because i'm a safe driver.

This thread is pretty much why our health care system fails, because 2 people can't agree on anything. Plus how is it asking for a handout by not being happy about spending 20% of my income on insurance that i rarely use? It's not like i'm sitting at home living off welfare bitching about not having insurance. I don't know about you but 20% is a huge ass chunk of my money because i barely make enough to pay my rent. I got laid off and i literally make 50% of what i made 3 years ago.

Oh and consider this....every one of us is at least well off enough to have internet and a computer. Think of those who are at home making bare minimum wage. They're the ones really getting screwed by insurance costs.

[Waffles]

I wasn't expecting these comments. A lot of people actually on the doctor's side?!? I think it's ridiculous that they can charge whatever they want. And no, I didn't see any sign saying that they charge to fill out any kind of forms for their patients...

Well, do you get paid to go to work? If you didn't, I'm sure you wouldn't go. If you do get paid, and I'm sure you do, then your company must be charging for some product or service. If they started giving that away for free, then maybe there wouldn't be money to pay you with. Some guys have said it was wrong or that it sucks, I can't even go that far.

If you can call a doctor "money hungry" for this, or companies evil for making a profit... then it only makes sense to call anyone who requires a paycheck in order to work the very same thing.

You don't HAVE to pay them to fill it out. You could choose not to pay them and they would not fill it out. Then you wouldn't get your short term disability, right? Sounds like the $15 is a good investment to me.

[thecollector]

For the record i'm not asking for a handout...i just think the lower-middle class people like myself should be able to afford health care. I'm spending 20% of my income to have health care "just in case" me or my family needs it. When you compare it to Denmark who's paying just a tad more of their income and they get 100% health and education...i feel screwed especially since i only get sick maybe once a year. How about all the coverage i pay for goes into a saving account so that if i don't need the coverage i get it back or it goes towards the bills when i do need it?


By the way, it's simply not as easy as just "get up and get a job". Trust me, if it were then i'd be making more than i do. Tell that to the people in Wilmington.

The plan your referring to is an HSA. You can set up a health savings account or a flex spending account to pay for your healthcare. I went this route last year because I never go to the doctor and wanted an alternative to a PPO. See your HR person or whomever you set up your healthcare with. You can also speak to someone at your bank about an account. Their are huge tax savings to be had. :)

Wilimington is unfortunate, No one denies that. I perform field service and repair on Industrial proccess equipment throughout north/and central america. I have first hand seen more factories with layoffs/shutdowns or completely going under than most have even heard of. It is a sad situation that is currently playing itself out throughout the country. Long term trade policy should be altered to help american manufacturing prospects. Short term solutions are more difficult and more often than not are up to the individual. In the end it is up to you to sustain your well-being. If I get canned tomorrow i'll go get another job. It may not be a job I love. I may have to let a car go back to the bank or change my standard of living. I may move to another area for a job or endure a longer commute. I will not however sit (let alone for 4 years) and wait for a solution to come to me. I will find it for myself. Life will go on.

PS: I meant to post this at 11:00 am but business had to go on.

[Waffles]

Newt is calling for matching China's capital gains tax of 0%, and matching Ireland's corporate tax of 12.5%. My bet is, a couple of policies like that would create some jobs and keep business from going elsewhere.

Oh, and leave business alone. Let businesses who fail, fail. Survival of the fittest in the corporate world too!

Government "help" to business is just as disastrous as government persecution... the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off. - Ayn Rand

[chadomac]

so this is a fair statement then.... i work retail you walk in to the store i am going to charge you a dollar to use my cart because i had to pay the cart attended to go out and get them. you walk back to electronics's you want a game out of the case im going to charge you 5 dollars for opening the case because i have to pay that person working to open the case. you have to use the restroom im going to charge you 2 dollars to use it because i have to pay the cleaning crew to clean it. then when you go to check out i am going to charge you a dollar for a bag to put your items in because it is part of my over head then i am going to charge you 2 dollars to bag the stuff for you because i have to pay that person too. according to your guys logic this would be acceptable.

[chadomac]

Huh? Mechanics do it anyday and everyday. Especially since there is not a guarantee that you will have it fixed then and there. Ever wonder why prices vary so greatly on the same repair? It's because they can charge whatever they feel like to you the customer. No difference here, it is just a different profession.

JMO,
Brian

mechanics can tell you about what it will cost to fix something. i had to take gunnar to the dotors today and a i was sitting there i was thinking about this thread. so i decided i would try something he has fluid on his ears that wont drain they said they would have to put tubes in them i said ohh ok now comes the fun part i said so how much is that going to cost...... huh well um i dont know well you are providing the service you cant tell me? no answer

[Ranger50]

so this is a fair statement then.... i work retail you walk in to the store i am going to charge you a dollar to use my cart because i had to pay the cart attended to go out and get them. you walk back to electronics's you want a game out of the case im going to charge you 5 dollars for opening the case because i have to pay that person working to open the case. you have to use the restroom im going to charge you 2 dollars to use it because i have to pay the cleaning crew to clean it. then when you go to check out i am going to charge you a dollar for a bag to put your items in because it is part of my over head then i am going to charge you 2 dollars to bag the stuff for you because i have to pay that person too. according to your guys logic this would be acceptable.

Sure it's acceptable, but the product's price has all these features included, so moot point. This isn't like getting everything you quoted is complex in nature or takes an absurd amount of time to finish.

[Ranger50]

mechanics can tell you about what it will cost to fix something. i had to take gunnar to the dotors today and a i was sitting there i was thinking about this thread. so i decided i would try something he has fluid on his ears that wont drain they said they would have to put tubes in them i said ohh ok now comes the fun part i said so how much is that going to cost...... huh well um i dont know well you are providing the service you cant tell me? no answer

They can't tell you because noone knows the answer. There is no way to give a cost when no money is handled directly by someone in the office, thank you insurance. On top of that, there is no way to really measure what is going to get used and in what quantity during the surgery. Every surgery is different. I have a house full of leftover surgery supplies that can not be reclaimed for another surgery.

[Waffles]

mechanics can tell you about what it will cost to fix something. i had to take gunnar to the dotors today and a i was sitting there i was thinking about this thread. so i decided i would try something he has fluid on his ears that wont drain they said they would have to put tubes in them i said ohh ok now comes the fun part i said so how much is that going to cost...... huh well um i dont know well you are providing the service you cant tell me? no answer

Just take him to the mechanic to get the tubes. Craig @ Cincy Speed sold me my long tubes. I installed them myself tho.

[Gene]

mechanics can tell you about what it will cost to fix something. i had to take gunnar to the dotors today and a i was sitting there i was thinking about this thread. so i decided i would try something he has fluid on his ears that wont drain they said they would have to put tubes in them i said ohh ok now comes the fun part i said so how much is that going to cost...... huh well um i dont know well you are providing the service you cant tell me? no answer

I'm calling bullshit on this one. If you're paying cash, the doctor knows EXACTLY what it's going to cost. He may have to double check with the office because he doesn't know it off the top of his head, but there is a price.

Incidentally, if you're paying cash, the price is WAY less because they don't have to deal with the insurance company paperwork (and risk of not getting paid). I had an infected tear duct a few years ago when I was working freelance and uninsured...I asked the doctor what is was going to cost for the outpatient surgery, he checked and said is $250 fair? He fixed the tear duct and I gave him my debit card. It was that simple.

Doctors have just as much a right as any professional to charge for their services. Like others have said, it's no different than having a mechanic work on your car. If you have your engine rebuilt, the costs of everything that was done to it are itemized on the invoice. You get charged for every gasket, spark plug and quart of oil. Why should the doctor's office be any different?

[chadomac]

Just take him to the mechanic to get the tubes. Craig @ Cincy Speed sold me my long tubes. I installed them myself tho.

LOL..

[Waffles]

Seriously though, I never got why one person trying to make money is "money hungry" while another person trying to make money is just "trying to earn a living." Doctors, as someone earlier pointed out, sacrifice and invest a lot to become doctors. 8-10 years of school sometimes and hundreds of thousands in debt. Why would they do that if not to make more money down the road?

[306Power]

Seriously though, I never got why one person trying to make money is "money hungry" while another person trying to make money is just "trying to earn a living." Doctors, as someone earlier pointed out, sacrifice and invest a lot to become doctors. 8-10 years of school sometimes and hundreds of thousands in debt. Why would they do that if not to make more money down the road?

Greed comes in all walks of life. Doctors, mechanics, lawyers, police officers, and etc. Just because one is greedy doesnt mean they all are, also doesnt mean that just because one isnt greedy that none of them are.

[Waffles]

Honestly, what's wrong with greed?

[306Power]

I guess depending on how you look at it, some people think that no matter what you do in life its always your choice and because you want to. That you dont sacrifice anything basically because deep down its something you WANT to do, in that since everybody is greedy. Others I guess think that greed does nothing but cause for loss of human feelings between each other in man kind. Shit now were getting into Philosophy lol.

[jeremy23]

I'm calling bullshit on this one. If you're paying cash, the doctor knows EXACTLY what it's going to cost. He may have to double check with the office because he doesn't know it off the top of his head, but there is a price.

Incidentally, if you're paying cash, the price is WAY less because they don't have to deal with the insurance company paperwork (and risk of not getting paid). I had an infected tear duct a few years ago when I was working freelance and uninsured...I asked the doctor what is was going to cost for the outpatient surgery, he checked and said is $250 fair? He fixed the tear duct and I gave him my debit card. It was that simple.

Doctors have just as much a right as any professional to charge for their services. Like others have said, it's no different than having a mechanic work on your car. If you have your engine rebuilt, the costs of everything that was done to it are itemized on the invoice. You get charged for every gasket, spark plug and quart of oil. Why should the doctor's office be any different?

Great point Gene. Most physicians usually try and help those patients that are self-pay or uninsured and this is primarily done by adjusting the expense and being able to lower what we charge. And not having to deal with insurance and billing helps reduce that cost. It is very common even for regular checkups to "under-code" for a visit for those that are self-pay and it can be said that the physician is wrong to do so, even though it is to try and help the patient. I would prefer patients that are self-pay or uninsured, I may charge/bill less, but I would also have a lot less BS insurance forms to mess with just to get a patient the meds they need. But thats a whole nother rant.

[Waffles]

Medical malpractice tort reform would go a long way to reducing health care costs....

[satan jamez]

The mrs was watching Oprah the other day and she was talking to these women from Denmark i believe...they're said to be the happiest people in the world. They said they pay a percentage of their income to taxes and it varies depending on your income, and that money gets you 100% health care and 100% paid education in any field you wish. She said people there are happy because everyone does what they want for a living and everyone is perfectly healthy, and there's no fear of losing your job because if you do their gov will help you get a new one AND pay up to 90% of your wages for FOUR YEARS until you get a new job. She was a docter herself and said that the doctors there don't work to be rich, they do it for the passion of helping the sick.

Now why the hell is our health care system so F'ed up? :confused:

I'm moving to Denmark then. That place sounds nice :angel:

[cstreu1026]

so this is a fair statement then.... i work retail you walk in to the store i am going to charge you a dollar to use my cart because i had to pay the cart attended to go out and get them. you walk back to electronics's you want a game out of the case im going to charge you 5 dollars for opening the case because i have to pay that person working to open the case. you have to use the restroom im going to charge you 2 dollars to use it because i have to pay the cleaning crew to clean it. then when you go to check out i am going to charge you a dollar for a bag to put your items in because it is part of my over head then i am going to charge you 2 dollars to bag the stuff for you because i have to pay that person too. according to your guys logic this would be acceptable.

That's flawed logic. Retail is selling an item. Something tangible that you can hold in your hand. The profit is built in to the price the item. Doctors are selling a service. You can't hold it your hands. You can't it home with you when you leave the office. You are paying for their time and their staffs time.



mechanics can tell you about what it will cost to fix something. i had to take gunnar to the dotors today and a i was sitting there i was thinking about this thread. so i decided i would try something he has fluid on his ears that wont drain they said they would have to put tubes in them i said ohh ok now comes the fun part i said so how much is that going to cost...... huh well um i dont know well you are providing the service you cant tell me? no answer

While it's very possible the doctor, physicians assistant, nurse practitioner, or medical assistant may not be able to give you the exact amount of what the procedure is going to cost someone in the office can. When you leave the office I am sure someone gives you a copy of some paperwork, probably pink or yellow. On there is a list of diagnosis, services, proceudres, etc. Right along side that is a number that is a code used to bill your visit to the insurance company. Those numbers are standardized throughout the industry and you have to have special training to understand them. Someone in the office should be able to tell you what the cost is by the code. If they can't then I suggest you find a new doctor because the people working there are idiots.

And as Gene mentioned, cash is King. If you have a high deductible plan or no insurance at all you might be better off paying cash especially if it is small medical practice. That no different than a lot of small businesses.

[04 Venom]

Medical malpractice tort reform would go a long way to reducing health care costs....

Maybe a short way...about 8%. This is nowhere close to the silver bullet some believe.

[04 Venom]

Honestly, what's wrong with greed?

Look what happened to Gordon Gecko.

[k062693w]

LMAO !!! I know I have posted my opinion in this thread on the subject of healthcare, But ... Only in America do we have a thread with 3 pages and now 58 posts over FIFTEEN FUCKING DOLLARS !!! I'm Fucking amazed !!! LMAO

We get on here and spend Thousands of dollars on parts/cars/toys/crap/etc that we don't need to survive or to feed our family or put a roof over our heads and make threads thanking the person for the good deal, And how all they need now is this or that and they can do this which means spending more money ... And never complain !!!

And then a situation where you have to spend a few bucks too have something done that in the long run is going to keep you healthy/fed/housed/etc ... Then it becomes OMFG !!! How dare them expect me to pay that to do something that is going to benefit me !!! Like has been mentioned before the malpractice is what is wrong with healthcare today !!! A Dr. is human and makes mistakes just like anyone else ... Just watch TV anytime, Every 3rd commercial is a Fucking Lawyer wanting you to try and find something a Dr. did so you can sue them !!!


And I'm not directing this at only this thread because there have been other threads that were along the same lines ...



MY $.02

[04 Venom]

LMAO !!! I know I have posted my opinion in this thread on the subject of healthcare, But ... Only in America do we have a thread with 3 pages and now 58 posts over FIFTEEN FUCKING DOLLARS !!! I'm Fucking amazed !!! LMAO

We get on here and spend Thousands of dollars on parts/cars/toys/crap/etc that we don't need to survive or to feed our family or put a roof over our heads and make threads thanking the person for the good deal, And how all they need now is this or that and they can do this which means spending more money ... And never complain !!!

And then a situation where you have to spend a few bucks too have something done that in the long run is going to keep you healthy/fed/housed/etc ... Then it becomes OMFG !!! How dare them expect me to pay that to do something that is going to benefit me !!! Like has been mentioned before the malpractice is what is wrong with healthcare today !!! A Dr. is human and makes mistakes just like anyone else ... Just watch TV anytime, Every 3rd commercial is a Fucking Lawyer wanting you to try and find something a Dr. did so you can sue them !!!


And I'm not directing this at only this thread because there have been other threads that were along the same lines ...



MY $.02

He does make a good point.

[87stangbbb]

agreed lol

[k062693w]

He does make a good point.


agreed lol

:lol: I'm not as Dumb as I think I am !!!

[Waffles]

LMAO !!! I know I have posted my opinion in this thread on the subject of healthcare, But ... Only in America do we have a thread with 3 pages and now 58 posts over FIFTEEN FUCKING DOLLARS !!! I'm Fucking amazed !!! LMAO

We get on here and spend Thousands of dollars on parts/cars/toys/crap/etc that we don't need to survive or to feed our family or put a roof over our heads and make threads thanking the person for the good deal, And how all they need now is this or that and they can do this which means spending more money ... And never complain !!!

And then a situation where you have to spend a few bucks too have something done that in the long run is going to keep you healthy/fed/housed/etc ... Then it becomes OMFG !!! How dare them expect me to pay that to do something that is going to benefit me !!! Like has been mentioned before the malpractice is what is wrong with healthcare today !!! A Dr. is human and makes mistakes just like anyone else ... Just watch TV anytime, Every 3rd commercial is a Fucking Lawyer wanting you to try and find something a Dr. did so you can sue them !!!


And I'm not directing this at only this thread because there have been other threads that were along the same lines ...



MY $.02

Like I said earlier, I think the $15 seems like a wise investment to me. I mean really, give me 70% of my income for several months for $15 and I'll pay it RIGHT NOW! Where can I sign up? Also like I said before, if you don't want to pay the $15, don't. I'm sure the short term disability insurance company won't complain for a single second if no one files a claim.

[facemelter71]

I see the Doctor as the Mechanic.
He quotes you to fix a problem.
Just like here.We have to give information to the warranty coverage people.We dont charge people to fill out there paperwork to file with there insurance company.
Pretty much same thing here.
Is she not having work done? And some of this paperwork needs to go to the insurance company right?
My logic could be wrong,but I see his side of the story.

[cstreu1026]

But if someone comes in for an oil change and then asks you to rotate the tires do you not charge them for the time it takes to rotate the tires?

[bestracing]

There's only one thing I have to say about Govn't run health care......Look at the VA and you've to have been through it or know someone that has been through it to know what I'm talking about, it's a nightmare.

[Waffles]

I can make that a little easier for ya. Forget VA, just find one thing the government manages well. VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, education, etc etc etc.

The only thing I came up with was the military, but that's not really true either. The military does an incredible job doing what it does, but that's not the government. As soon as the government gets involved there too, everything goes to hell.

[facemelter71]

But if someone comes in for an oil change and then asks you to rotate the tires do you not charge them for the time it takes to rotate the tires?

Your asking for another service.Would you charge them to put air in your tires? no.Same thing as filling out paper work.For the type of paper there asking for,it shouldnt take any time at all.Same as putting air in a tire by the Mechanic.
I could see charging if they had to notorize it,or maybe use a half a gallon of ink.But this isnt the case.

[Waffles]

Your asking for another service.Would you charge them to put air in your tires? no.Same thing as filling out paper work.For the type of paper there asking for,it shouldnt take any time at all.Same as putting air in a tire by the Mechanic.
I could see charging if they had to notorize it,or maybe use a half a gallon of ink.But this isnt the case.

Again, it really is a simple solution. If you don't want to pay to get it filled out, then don't pay. They'll be happy to not fill it out for you, and the insurance company will be tickled you're not filing the claim.

I wonder what people would OFFER to pay if the doctor just said, "No thanks, we're not willing to fill it out..." :lol:

[chadomac]

I wonder what people would OFFER to pay if the doctor just said, "No thanks, we're not willing to fill it out..." :lol:

go to another doctor who will

[Waffles]

THERE! YES! That's the free market at work!

And if your current doctor loses enough business over it and they'll stop charging for filling them out. My bet is though, that most people will just pay the lousy $15.

[cstreu1026]

Your asking for another service.Would you charge them to put air in your tires? no.Same thing as filling out paper work.For the type of paper there asking for,it shouldnt take any time at all.Same as putting air in a tire by the Mechanic.
I could see charging if they had to notorize it,or maybe use a half a gallon of ink.But this isnt the case.

But they are asking the doctor's office to certify their claim and the doctor is accepting some responsibility by filling out the paperwork. If for any reason the claim ever ends up being investigated the doctor's office is going to be at the front and center of it since they are the one that filled out the paperwork.

What do you think an attorney would charge to fill out some similar paperwork? It surely wouldn't be free, but I doubt anyone would complain about that.

[Black92LX]

I wasn't expecting these comments. A lot of people actually on the doctor's side?!? I think it's ridiculous that they can charge whatever they want. And no, I didn't see any sign saying that they charge to fill out any kind of forms for their patients...

Why is it ridiculous they can charge what ever they want??

You can go to whatever doctor you want. You don't like the cost go to another one. As someone else already stated his wife's doctor charges $20 for the same document.
So you are already at a 25% savings.

The reason this country is in the situation it is in is because of this entitlement belief that simple because you breathe you are guaranteed this or that.
There are very few things if any that you are guaranteed just for being alive.

Healthcare is not a right, your rights are clearly defined in the founding documents of this nation and individual health care and needs are no where even close to being listed.

As for the whole Denmark scenario, please name me the last life saving or life altering invention, service, or, medicine that came from that nation.
You will have to dig long and hard, why because there in no incentive to excel because they are "entitled" to have a job and get paid no matter how poorly or well they do. So why go above and beyond if you get paid the same as the guy working his ass of and you sit around doing as little as possible but get paid the same.
Yet people from the United States pump them out on a daily basis.

That's why this Country has given more to the advancement of this world than any other country. Because people are driven to excel from profits. Profit/Money drives innovation it's plain and simple.

We are arguably the strongest nation economically and in innovation, yet we are still in our infancy when it comes to age of the country.

Is health care expensive, yeah it sure is, but how much did it cost for that Doctor to get there, how much does it cost them to stay being a doctor??

You also need to look at the government for the reason health care prices are so high.
Medicare and Medicaid. You are paying for those individuals care not only with your tax dollars but your $15 forms.
Medicare and Medicaid pays the doctors very little, that they can barely keep up that's why you get charged more. That's also why many doctors are stopping taking patients that are on medicare or medicaid because they aren't even near their bottom line.


The only thing I came up with was the military, but that's not really true either. The military does an incredible job doing what it does, but that's not the government. As soon as the government gets involved there too, everything goes to hell.
And this is only due to economies of scale.
Private Contractors are far more efficient and better trained than most of our military, they just cannot compare to the shear size and funding of the government. If they could the private sector would win in militarization as well.


so this is a fair statement then.... i work retail you walk in to the store i am going to charge you a dollar to use my cart because i had to pay the cart attended to go out and get them. you walk back to electronics's you want a game out of the case im going to charge you 5 dollars for opening the case because i have to pay that person working to open the case. you have to use the restroom im going to charge you 2 dollars to use it because i have to pay the cleaning crew to clean it. then when you go to check out i am going to charge you a dollar for a bag to put your items in because it is part of my over head then i am going to charge you 2 dollars to bag the stuff for you because i have to pay that person too. according to your guys logic this would be acceptable.
Yes this is acceptable if people will pay. I am going to find the cheapest price.
For instance I just ordered some Protein shakes all charged the same price for the shakes, but had 3 different charges for shipping.
I went with the one that had free shipping.
You as a business owner can create any pricing structure you want. The rub is will people choose to use you or someone else based upon that pricing structure???

Like tire discounters "everything is included, including alignment" Others choose to break up the cost. It's all about the structure. Is tire discounters always the cheapest, no. Sometimes it's cheaper to buy the tires one place, get them mounted another, and get the alignment a third.

[k062693w]

^^^ I'm going to admit that I agree with everything you said !!! LOL ^^^

[Waffles]

As for the whole Denmark scenario, please name me the last life saving or life altering invention, service, or, medicine that came from that nation.
You will have to dig long and hard, why because there in no incentive to excel because they are "entitled" to have a job and get paid no matter how poorly or well they do. So why go above and beyond if you get paid the same as the guy working his ass of and you sit around doing as little as possible but get paid the same.
Yet people from the United States pump them out on a daily basis.

That's why this Country has given more to the advancement of this world than any other country. Because people are driven to excel from profits. Profit/Money drives innovation it's plain and simple.


YES! I often use the example that, I get HORRIBLE migraines. I've lost several jobs over them. I know some people that have it easier that will sit on disability over them, but I just find ways to work around them - like being self-employed so I can re-schedule when I have a migraine.

Point is, there is a drug that works very well for me to prevent migraines, but I can't afford it. Unfair? Sometimes I feel like that. However, what it really comes down to is that the drug wouldn't even exist if it were not profitable. The evil drug companies spend millions in R&D, then the evil rich people and evil insurance companies pay for it so that later down the road poor fellas like me will have it available. The cost has cut in half in the last 2 years. In another year or two I will have it myself. Without this process, I wouldn't EVER have it available to me.... it simply would never exist.

To the rest of everything, Imma just say AMEN BROTHER!

[Waffles]

You also need to look at the government for the reason health care prices are so high.
Medicare and Medicaid. You are paying for those individuals care not only with your tax dollars but your $15 forms.
Medicare and Medicaid pays the doctors very little, that they can barely keep up that's why you get charged more. That's also why many doctors are stopping taking patients that are on medicare or medicaid because they aren't even near their bottom line.


Actually, anyone else see a parallel here with government involvement in healthcare and the government involving themselves in lending with the CRA? The government forces business to take losses, everyone else pays, industry collapses...

[MrsAPE]

^^^ I'm going to admit that I agree with everything you said !!! LOL ^^^

me too with a disclaimer....I didn't read the Denmark part...

[k062693w]

me too with a disclaimer....I didn't read the Denmark part...

:lol: LMAO !!! I should have quoted him, Because he threw the Ninja Edit in there on me !!! :lol:

[Black92LX]

:lol: LMAO !!! I should have quoted him, Because he threw the Ninja Edit in there on me !!! :lol:

sorry sometimes the thoughts keep rolling after i hit reply.

[MrsAPE]

:lol: LMAO !!! I should have quoted him, Because he threw the Ninja Edit in there on me !!! :lol:

That's funny!! :lol:

[Hangingcogs]

First of all, you have the right to change providers, ESPECIALLY if you are paying cash and have no insurance and/or don't qualify for financial assistance.

If you go to the ER, have a hospital stay, etc. you need to ask to fill out Financial Assitance. If you don't ask, you will be sent these bills. This form is very short, you simply state how many live in your residence and your income. You will either get a discount or get it paid 100% depending on your poverty level.

Second, it's NEVER to late to find a doctor. I understand not wanting to switch doctors, but, that is your decision.

I'm having surgery on Thursday and had to pay $1005 upfront to my doctor to perform surgery and I even have insurance! So bitching about the $15 is kinda ridiculous in my opinion. If anyone should be bitching, it should be me!

[HDmstng]

Look what happened to Gordon Gecko.

He's been reduced to selling insurance on TV!

http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/library/geico_gecko.jpg

[cstreu1026]

I'm having surgery on Thursday and had to pay $1005 upfront to my doctor to perform surgery and I even have insurance! So bitching about the $15 is kinda ridiculous in my opinion. If anyone should be bitching, it should be me!

When I had my wisdom teeth removed this spring I had to pay $50 to the oral surgeon just for a consultation. Then I had to pay the part they estimated my insurance wouldn't cover (almost $600) up front on the day of the surgery.

[04 Venom]

I can make that a little easier for ya. Forget VA, just find one thing the government manages well. VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, education, etc etc etc.

The only thing I came up with was the military, but that's not really true either. The military does an incredible job doing what it does, but that's not the government. As soon as the government gets involved there too, everything goes to hell.

An example of repeating a statement enough times and assuming that people believe it. It is simplistic and overwrought response to every problem the Lunatic Fringe sees. By this hyperbolic logic, Somalia (with no functioning government) would be leaping ahead economically and politically and China (which is a highly regulated market) would not be the leading the world in exports, have the largest market for new cars and would not soon be the second largest economy in the planet.

By the way, the military is part of the government. Once again if the facts don't fit the theory, simply ignore or change the facts.

[04 Venom]

THERE! YES! That's the free market at work!

And if your current doctor loses enough business over it and they'll stop charging for filling them out. My bet is though, that most people will just pay the lousy $15.

Hardcore is apparently auditioning to replace Michael Douglas in the sequel to "Wall Street"; remember "greed is good".

Unfortunately, the free market isn't always free, rational or the most efficient means of distributing resources and rewarding effort. Either he read the Cliff Notes version of Adam Smith's "An Inquiry Into The Nature And Causes of The Wealth of Nations" or didn't notice that it was written in 1776--and times have changed. It must have been the Smith's description of the "invisible hand" guiding the free market that appeals to him.

To add irony to ignorance, Hardcore tries to apply his naive view of the free market to the health care sector, which is one of the LEAST competitive sectors of our economy. So, let me understand this, our free market has given us the most expensive health care system (nearly twice expensive as the second most expensive) in the world? Oh wait, I forgot, it is because of the government and the lawyers suing everybody. Wait, doesn't the government run these cheaper health care systems in other countries? Shit, now I have one of Hardcore's migraine headaches trying to figure out why no explanation seems to make perfect sense.

So remember StangBangerzs, when anyone tries to sell you a simple explanation for a complex problem, they don't know what they are talking about or they are running for public office. Whether you believe that health care reform is good or bad, you'll find individuals, political commentators and politicians ready willing and able to feed you shit and tell you it is filet mignon in support of either side of the argument. A lot of it winds up here.

[04 Venom]

The reason this country is in the situation it is in is because of this entitlement belief that simple because you breathe you are guaranteed this or that.
There are very few things if any that you are guaranteed just for being alive.

Healthcare is not a right, your rights are clearly defined in the founding documents of this nation and individual health care and needs are no where even close to being listed.

As for the whole Denmark scenario, please name me the last life saving or life altering invention, service, or, medicine that came from that nation.
You will have to dig long and hard, why because there in no incentive to excel because they are "entitled" to have a job and get paid no matter how poorly or well they do. So why go above and beyond if you get paid the same as the guy working his ass of and you sit around doing as little as possible but get paid the same.
Yet people from the United States pump them out on a daily basis.

That's why this Country has given more to the advancement of this world than any other country. Because people are driven to excel from profits. Profit/Money drives innovation it's plain and simple.

We are arguably the strongest nation economically and in innovation, yet we are still in our infancy when it comes to age of the country.

Is health care expensive, yeah it sure is, but how much did it cost for that Doctor to get there, how much does it cost them to stay being a doctor??

You also need to look at the government for the reason health care prices are so high.
Medicare and Medicaid. You are paying for those individuals care not only with your tax dollars but your $15 forms.
Medicare and Medicaid pays the doctors very little, that they can barely keep up that's why you get charged more. That's also why many doctors are stopping taking patients that are on medicare or medicaid because they aren't even near their bottom line.


And this is only due to economies of scale.
Private Contractors are far more efficient and better trained than most of our military, they just cannot compare to the shear size and funding of the government. If they could the private sector would win in militarization as well.


Yes this is acceptable if people will pay. I am going to find the cheapest price.
For instance I just ordered some Protein shakes all charged the same price for the shakes, but had 3 different charges for shipping.
I went with the one that had free shipping.
You as a business owner can create any pricing structure you want. The rub is will people choose to use you or someone else based upon that pricing structure???

Like tire discounters "everything is included, including alignment" Others choose to break up the cost. It's all about the structure. Is tire discounters always the cheapest, no. Sometimes it's cheaper to buy the tires one place, get them mounted another, and get the alignment a third.

Wow. There are some serious extrapolation errors weaving through your response.

Example: Check the Nobel Prize winners for the past 50 years before you conclude that other nations are just along for the ride.

Example: Doesn't the profit motive also sometime lead to monopolies, predatory pricing and other non-competitive behavior that harms the economy?

Example: Some nations with the non-competitive facets in their economies you cite have a higher standard of living than we do. That shouldn't be the case under your premise.

Example: Leaving national defense to private contractors? Are you serious? Private companies are not geared toward performing essential governmental functions such as military defense. So if the private companies like Blackwater are hired because they are "better trained" than the active duty military go out of business, do we call France to take over our national defense? :lol:

[Waffles]

Hardcore is apparently auditioning to replace Michael Douglas in the sequel to "Wall Street"; remember "greed is good".

Unfortunately, the free market isn't always free, rational or the most efficient means of distributing resources and rewarding effort. Either he read the Cliff Notes version of Adam Smith's "An Inquiry Into The Nature And Causes of The Wealth of Nations" or didn't notice that it was written in 1776--and times have changed. It must have been the Smith's description of the "invisible hand" guiding the free market that appeals to him.

To add irony to ignorance, Hardcore tries to apply his naive view of the free market to the health care sector, which is one of the LEAST competitive sectors of our economy. So, let me understand this, our free market has given us the most expensive health care system (nearly twice expensive as the second most expensive) in the world? Oh wait, I forgot, it is because of the government and the lawyers suing everybody. Wait, doesn't the government run these cheaper health care systems in other countries? Shit, now I have one of Hardcore's migraine headaches trying to figure out why no explanation seems to make perfect sense.

So remember StangBangerzs, when anyone tries to sell you a simple explanation for a complex problem, they don't know what they are talking about or they are running for public office. Whether you believe that health care reform is good or bad, you'll find individuals, political commentators and politicians ready willing and able to feed you shit and tell you it is filet mignon in support of either side of the argument. A lot of it winds up here.

What? Nothing about my mother this time? I'm disappointed....

[Black92LX]

Wow. There are some serious extrapolation errors weaving through your response.

Example: Check the Nobel Prize winners for the past 50 years before you conclude that other nations are just along for the ride.

Example: Doesn't the profit motive also sometime lead to monopolies, predatory pricing and other non-competitive behavior that harms the economy?

Example: Some nations with the non-competitive facets in their economies you cite have a higher standard of living than we do. That shouldn't be the case under your premise.

Example: Leaving national defense to private contractors? Are you serious? Private companies are not geared toward performing essential governmental functions such as military defense. So if the private companies like Blackwater are hired because they are "better trained" than the active duty military go out of business, do we call France to take over our national defense? :lol:

I never stated that other nations have not given this world good things. My point is lets take a look at the ratio of life changing/ saving things that this country has created vs. all others.
And your your Nobel Prize comparison is nothing but laughable. That group lost any and all creditability of being anything meaning full in 1994, with Yasser Arafat and has continued to show that they have strayed far from the point that it was originally created for with Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, and Barack Obama.

Also I never stated our system is perfect, you will run into problems like monopolies and non-competitive behavior. I am for government intervention and so were the founding fathers (just a very very very very small amount)

And as for private contractors being better than government militaries, they absolutely are. If they were able to be taken to the scale of our government (which won't happen due to cost and size constraints).

There is a reason we use them. Ever notice how almost all high priority diplomatic escorts are handled by contractors and not military personnel??
Wonder why that is???

If money, manpower, and just governmental operations were equal the private sector would win even in that of national defense.

In the United States case that will never happen.

I would put many contractors up against quite a few countries military any day of the week.

[04 Venom]

And your your Nobel Prize comparison is nothing but laughable. That group lost any and all creditability of being anything meaning full in 1994, with Yasser Arafat and has continued to show that they have strayed far from the point that it was originally created for with Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, and Barack Obama.


I was referring to the Nobel Prizes awarded for economics, physics chemistry, literature and medicine, rather than the Nobel Peace Prize. Should have made that clear.

[04 Venom]

And as for private contractors being better than government militaries, they absolutely are. If they were able to be taken to the scale of our government (which won't happen due to cost and size constraints).

There is a reason we use them. Ever notice how almost all high priority diplomatic escorts are handled by contractors and not military personnel??
Wonder why that is???

If money, manpower, and just governmental operations were equal the private sector would win even in that of national defense.

In the United States case that will never happen.

I would put many contractors up against quite a few countries military any day of the week.

That's bullshit and you should know better. Where do you think that Blackwater (now called Xe) and these other security contractors get many of their people. That's right, the good old poorly trained US military.

Oh, by the way, the average Xe security personnel costs the taxpayer $445,000 a year. There is a good example of the efficiency of the free market--courtesy of no-bid contracts from the Bush administration that continues to the present day. Also, you should be aware that the company is under investigation for arms smuggling--another innovation from the private sector? The profit motive at work? By the way, national defense is not a profit making enterprise, so, by your paradigm, private companies would have no incentive to perform. I know you just aren't dumb, but your arguments are getting more and more incredible to defend a wildly inflated generalization. I seem to recall somewhere that you are a LEO; can't the private sector do your job better than you?

[04 Venom]

What? Nothing about my mother this time? I'm disappointed....

Imagine your mother's disappointment. :D

[Gene]

I was referring to the Nobel Prizes awarded for economics, physics chemistry, literature and medicine, rather than the Nobel Peace Prize. Should have made that clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country

The United States has 320 Nobel Laureates in ALL disciplines, more than DOUBLE any other nation.

[306Power]

And as for private contractors being better than government militaries, they absolutely are. If they were able to be taken to the scale of our government (which won't happen due to cost and size constraints).

I love how a lot of citizens think they know how and what goes on deep in the military :lol:. You think they just tell you every group and tactic they have? No I'm not talking about Delta Force lol, theres much more in the military then what citizens know. It's suppose to be that way, if we know then our enemies know. If you look at most private contractors they have military experience espicially in the Special Forces field anyways.

[04 Venom]

I love how a lot of citizens think they know how and what goes on deep in the military :lol:. You think they just tell you every group and tactic they have? No I'm not talking about Delta Force lol, theres much more in the military then what citizens know. It's suppose to be that way, if we know then our enemies know. If you look at most private contractors they have military experience espicially in the Special Forces field anyways.

Exactly! :bigthumb

[04 Venom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_country

The United States has 320 Nobel Laureates in ALL disciplines, more than DOUBLE any other nation.

No argument. A substantial number of them are foreign born.

[Gene]

A substantial number of them are foreign born.

So? This is a nation of immigrants. Always has been. They came here because the opportunity is here.

[NickBeam]

An example of repeating a statement enough times and assuming that people believe it. It is simplistic and overwrought response to every problem the Lunatic Fringe sees. By this hyperbolic logic, Somalia (with no functioning government) would be leaping ahead economically and politically and China (which is a highly regulated market) would not be the leading the world in exports, have the largest market for new cars and would not soon be the second largest economy in the planet.

By the way, the military is part of the government. Once again if the facts don't fit the theory, simply ignore or change the facts.

Sooooo China's market is "highly regulated" and ours isn't? I guess 04 Venom forgot that China has a capital gains tax of zero, even for short term investing. United States is 15% for long term and can be up to 35% for short term. If you tax something guess what people do, they try to AVOID it. In this case people invest less. China also has a much lower corporate tax than United States, I guess he forgot about that too. And I'm not sure the point you were trying to make about the military being part of the government. The military runs itself for the most part. But as a former Marine I have witnessed first hand the negative effects of government policies and especially about PC (political correctness) in the military. The higher up you go in rank the more bullshit you have to deal with. Shit rolls downhill as they say, what's at the top again? Don't think that because we have a strong military that it couldn't be stronger with a little less micromanagement coming from Washington.

[NickBeam]

Hardcore is apparently auditioning to replace Michael Douglas in the sequel to "Wall Street"; remember "greed is good".

Unfortunately, the free market isn't always free, rational or the most efficient means of distributing resources and rewarding effort. Either he read the Cliff Notes version of Adam Smith's "An Inquiry Into The Nature And Causes of The Wealth of Nations" or didn't notice that it was written in 1776--and times have changed. It must have been the Smith's description of the "invisible hand" guiding the free market that appeals to him.

To add irony to ignorance, Hardcore tries to apply his naive view of the free market to the health care sector, which is one of the LEAST competitive sectors of our economy. So, let me understand this, our free market has given us the most expensive health care system (nearly twice expensive as the second most expensive) in the world? Oh wait, I forgot, it is because of the government and the lawyers suing everybody. Wait, doesn't the government run these cheaper health care systems in other countries? Shit, now I have one of Hardcore's migraine headaches trying to figure out why no explanation seems to make perfect sense.

So remember StangBangerzs, when anyone tries to sell you a simple explanation for a complex problem, they don't know what they are talking about or they are running for public office. Whether you believe that health care reform is good or bad, you'll find individuals, political commentators and politicians ready willing and able to feed you shit and tell you it is filet mignon in support of either side of the argument. A lot of it winds up here.

Gee your a smart one.. Healthcare is one of least competitive sectors and it's also one of the most expensive. Am I missing something? So does that mean the government should take over healthcare and make it even less competitive? Are you completely ignoring how the government has already altered the healthcare market? I guess you think the low reimbursement rates for Medicare and Medicaid doesn't effect the price of healthcare at all right? I guess the heavy regulation by the states doesn't effect it either? The Free Market can fix healthcare. But we don't have a free market now do we? So how can something we don't have be causing the problem? I guess it's not causing it then is it... Maybe excessive government intervention? Maybe? Yes?

[chadomac]

UMMMMMMMMMM i guess we are going to pay the 15 bucks

[04 Venom]

Sooooo China's market is "highly regulated" and ours isn't? I guess 04 Venom forgot that China has a capital gains tax of zero, even for short term investing. United States is 15% for long term and can be up to 35% for short term. If you tax something guess what people do, they try to AVOID it. In this case people invest less. China also has a much lower corporate tax than United States, I guess he forgot about that too. And I'm not sure the point you were trying to make about the military being part of the government. The military runs itself for the most part. But as a former Marine I have witnessed first hand the negative effects of government policies and especially about PC (political correctness) in the military. The higher up you go in rank the more bullshit you have to deal with. Shit rolls downhill as they say, what's at the top again? Don't think that because we have a strong military that it couldn't be stronger with a little less micromanagement coming from Washington.

China does have a capital gains tax (20%), a consumption tax, a VAT tax plus dozens of others that don't exist here. Do your own research.

You can start here.

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/

Or here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Got the idea? China's economy is more heavily regulated than the US. If you read the prior threads carefully I was trying to make the point that a free market is a myth in any country. Also, that there is no correlation between government involvement in a particular country's economy and its economic performance. If it was, China would not soon be the second largest economy in the world and have the largest currency reserves of any nation.

[04 Venom]

Gee your a smart one.. Healthcare is one of least competitive sectors and it's also one of the most expensive. Am I missing something? So does that mean the government should take over healthcare and make it even less competitive? Are you completely ignoring how the government has already altered the healthcare market? I guess you think the low reimbursement rates for Medicare and Medicaid doesn't effect the price of healthcare at all right? I guess the heavy regulation by the states doesn't effect it either? The Free Market can fix healthcare. But we don't have a free market now do we? So how can something we don't have be causing the problem? I guess it's not causing it then is it... Maybe excessive government intervention? Maybe? Yes?

Again you miss the point.

Nearly all industrialized countries have government provided health care. Clearly, there is more government involvement in those health care economies than in the US. Yet we have, by a wide margin, the most expensive health care in the world (and among the reasons for that is that we spend a disproportionate amount of our health care funds during the last 6 months of a person's life when they have a terminal disease or are gravely ill). Since our health care system is closer to a free market than Europe or Japan, for example, it should be cheaper rather than more expensive.

Clearly reimbursement levels for Medicare and Medicaid affect the medical economy--who said it did not? The effect of these reimbursement rates does artifically slow the rate of spending on health care.

I never said that government should or should not be responsible for health care. What I said is that the Lunatic Fringe's believes that all we have to do is let the "free market" work and all our problems go away. That may have worked better in the 18th and early 19th century, but there a totally free market is a myth, at least at the macroeconomic level, in a modern society.

Whether you like it or not, the influence of local, state and federal governments will increase, not decrease, in the future, regardless of who controls the Congress and White House. Your ideal of a totally free market ended about a century ago and there is no going back, unless you want to move to Somalia, since there is no government to corrupt your Utopia there.

[Waffles]

When talking about drilling for oil in ANWR the tree huggers always say something about how it took us 15 years to get to the oil on the North Slope. They fail to mention that 8 of those 15 years were spent battling them in court. This is what Venom reminds me of. Screw up the system somewhat and then use the fact that it's screwed up a little in order to justify screwing it up a lot.

[chadomac]

the Lunatic Fringe

Of Amercain fm........WEBN?

[Black92LX]

That's bullshit and you should know better. Where do you think that Blackwater (now called Xe) and these other security contractors get many of their people. That's right, the good old poorly trained US military.

Oh, by the way, the average Xe security personnel costs the taxpayer $445,000 a year. There is a good example of the efficiency of the free market--courtesy of no-bid contracts from the Bush administration that continues to the present day. Also, you should be aware that the company is under investigation for arms smuggling--another innovation from the private sector? The profit motive at work? By the way, national defense is not a profit making enterprise, so, by your paradigm, private companies would have no incentive to perform. I know you just aren't dumb, but your arguments are getting more and more incredible to defend a wildly inflated generalization. I seem to recall somewhere that you are a LEO; can't the private sector do your job better than you?

You are talking as if I am saying that out military does a bad job. That is by no means the case. We have the greatest military in the world bar none. But again that is tied to how the private sector is limited in money, jurisdiction, and function of the military itself.
I would never want the countries military to be run solely by the private sector it would not work.

My point is if the playing field were level (which it will never be and for good reason) that private militaries (if you want to call them that) would rival government militaries.

Hell there are many a countries that private contractors could overtake currently. No need for that but the point is the ability is there.

As for the illegal activities that you are alleging. Blackwater (Xe)is one of hundreds of private contracting companies. You are going to have the bad apples. Not saying if they are guilty that it is OK, by no means it's not and they should be handled accordingly.

As for private sector LEO doing a better job than government ran LEO. I have stated it in the past and will continue to state it. There are some amazing private LEOs out there and just like the military if the playing field were level the ability of the private sector would be there
The first that come to mind are the railroad police. (CSX, Northern Southern, and RJ Corman). All have excellent police forces and down right amazing tactical teams.
So of their moving train extraction training is unreal.

As for Blackwater (Xe) costing the tax dollar 445,000 a year you are correct. But that is not what it cost for them to work. That is what they charge the government why because their services are ELITE and they can charge that much.
And reverting back to blaming Bush. Next week he'll have been out of the office for a year but it's still his fault.


I love how a lot of citizens think they know how and what goes on deep in the military . You think they just tell you every group and tactic they have? No I'm not talking about Delta Force lol, theres much more in the military then what citizens know. It's suppose to be that way, if we know then our enemies know. If you look at most private contractors they have military experience espicially in the Special Forces field anyways.

This is why the private sector can function better incentive. Why do people leave the military and go to Contractors, because they pay more, much more.

Just like anything thing else people jump from company to company.

By stating the private contractors abilities rival the military in certain aspects is by no means a rip on the military in any way.
If anything it's a pat on the back because you are correct because the true foundation of any private defense contractor is that of the military.

So don't feel I am knocking our military, because I have nothing but respect and admiration for those that serve.


Don't get me wrong here folks, you all want to seem that I want to abolish government in all aspects or something. That is by no means the case. We need government, but more importantly the government needs us.

I am just a fan of very very very little government intervention. Our founding documents outline the governments job and what they should do. Unfortunately they have gone above and beyond and we really need to start reigning them in or it's going to get far worse.

Also to the Greed is good idea. While greed is good it's just like almost too much of anything, too much greed can be bad as well.
Nothing wrong with a little greed in moderation but too much problems will ensue.
But that goes for Government as well.
I would argue that Government Greed is far more dangerous than that of private sector greed. The private sector can't take away my rights, the government can.

[Black92LX]

Since our health care system is closer to a free market than Europe or Japan, for example, it should be cheaper rather than more expensive.
This is not an apples to apple comparison. Because the ones who actually pay for health care are not only paying for themselves but paying for those who do not pay their medical bills. The medical institutions just don't write them off as a loss it gets paid for by the people who actually pay for services.

You are also forgetting to factor in the cost of medical malpractice insurance that any doctor must carry because of ridiculously frivolous lawsuits that are allowed and granted in this country.

Go to a Government run system and something goes wrong, think you can sue, think again.

Those all add to a medical institutions bottom line in turn making services cost that much more.

[k062693w]

Again !!! LMAO All of this over $15.00 !!! Only in America :lol:

[MrsAPE]

OH I think it quit being about the $15 dollars a long time ago!!

[347sc]

Somebody steer this failboat back on topic.

[Waffles]

It's on topic. The topic is the mentality of it somehow being wrong for the doc to charge the $15 and how the government should protect them from it. The rest of this is all about the same mentality.

[04 Venom]

You are also forgetting to factor in the cost of medical malpractice insurance that any doctor must carry because of ridiculously frivolous lawsuits that are allowed and granted in this country.


Sorry, but I didn't forget as one of my prior posts stated. The added cost of medical malpractice insurance and ambulance chasing attorneys accounts for 8% of our health care costs. That's a lot of money, but it is not the silver bullet that the Lunatic Fringe posits. To them it is always simple and always wrong: let the Free Market rule and tort reform.

Now before the Luddites, like Hardcore, lament the end of the Free Market and blame the messenger, there are still strongly competitive forces in the market place which can efficiently allocate resources and services. That is a GOOD THING. All I have been saying is the myth of the Free Market in today's world ranks right up there with the Earth being 6500 years old (that should create a whole new direction to this thread--we haven't heard from the Creationists :lol:).

Would competition improve the delivery of health services, of course it can. Here's an example: the health care insurance federal civilian employees currently have (some states have similar systems) is much lower cost than you can buy in the private sector. My oldest son works for one of the intelligence agencies in the DC area and buys excellent family coverage for $235.98 a month (the true cost is higher because federal government pays 25% of the premium, so the total cost is a little over $300 a month). There are no limits on pre-existing conditions, you can change health care insurance every December and you don't lose the insurance if you change jobs (as long as you remain in the federal service). How does this happen? Well OPM (Office of Personnel Management) negotiates directly with the insurance companies to set rates and minimum standards; the insurance companies set up their own plans, which the employees choose from. Obviously, economies of scale apply and the insurance companies are motivated to compete for a slice of a 1.8 million person insurance pool. Depending on the area of the country, you have a choice of anywhere from 12 to 30 companies to choose from--less in rural areas, more in urban areas.

But how can this be--doesn't everything the government touch turn to shit? After all, haven't we all read from Hardcore and others that the government is incapable of doing anything right? Is more government control better--of course not (look at the federal deficit as an example), but the Luddites love to make absolute statements that many times are absolutely wrong.

[Ranger50]

Sorry, but I didn't forget as one of my prior posts stated. The added cost of medical malpractice insurance and ambulance chasing attorneys accounts for 8% of our health care costs. That's a lot of money, but it is not the silver bullet that the Lunatic Fringe posits. To them it is always simple and always wrong: let the Free Market rule and tort reform.

Now before the Luddites, like Hardcore, lament the end of the Free Market and blame the messenger, there are still strongly competitive forces in the market place which can efficiently allocate resources and services. That is a GOOD THING. All I have been saying is the myth of the Free Market in today's world ranks right up there with the Earth being 6500 years old (that should create a whole new direction to this thread--we haven't heard from the Creationists :lol:).

Would competition improve the delivery of health services, of course it can. Here's an example: the health care insurance federal civilian employees currently have (some states have similar systems) is much lower cost than you can buy in the private sector. My oldest son works for one of the intelligence agencies in the DC area and buys excellent family coverage for $235.98 a month (the true cost is higher because federal government pays 25% of the premium, so the total cost is a little over $300 a month). There are no limits on pre-existing conditions, you can change health care insurance every December and you don't lose the insurance if you change jobs (as long as you remain in the federal service). How does this happen? Well OPM (Office of Personnel Management) negotiates directly with the insurance companies to set rates and minimum standards; the insurance companies set up their own plans, which the employees choose from. Obviously, economies of scale apply and the insurance companies are motivated to compete for a slice of a 1.8 million person insurance pool. Depending on the area of the country, you have a choice of anywhere from 12 to 30 companies to choose from--less in rural areas, more in urban areas.

But how can this be--doesn't everything the government touch turn to shit? After all, haven't we all read from Hardcore and others that the government is incapable of doing anything right? Is more government control better--of course not (look at the federal deficit as an example), but the Luddites love to make absolute statements that many times are absolutely wrong.

Two questions: Who is the source of your 8% and other numbers? Second, why must you call us names to make your point? So far I haven't seen anyone call you a ignorant stupid fuck yet.

Brian

[Waffles]

Two questions: Who is the source of your 8% and other numbers? Second, why must you call us names to make your point? So far I haven't seen anyone call you a ignorant stupid fuck yet.

Brian

Haha... but it's been a long time coming! I was wondering the same thing about the 8%. I've picked apart enough statistical bullshit to not believe shit like that unless I see where it's coming from.

I once read a poster hanging in a Doc office that said something about a gun in the household being 5 times more likely to harm a family member than to prevent a crime. I found that IMPOSSIBLE to believe. So I looked up the source. Turned out some medical group in some New England state worked the statistics like this : to be counted as a "successful prevention of crime" the assailant must have been shot and killed. It did not count any use of the gun, such as brandishing it and the assailant running away, as successful. Also, in cases where the gun was used against a family member to prevent a crime, it was not counted in the "preventing a crime" category at all.

I suspect Venom read the 8% statistic and snatched it up just because it supported his argument. It almost certainly doesn't account of things like the costs of defensive medicine.

Venom is always good at characterizing other people's points of view incorrectly to make himself seem smarter. I couldn't care less. Whatever makes him feel better.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/30/AR2009073002816.html

[04 Venom]

Two questions: Who is the source of your 8% and other numbers? Second, why must you call us names to make your point? So far I haven't seen anyone call you a ignorant stupid fuck yet.

Brian

The source of the figure was an article in the Wall Street Journal, which quoted a review by the Kaiser Foundation. I got the figure wrong however, the estimated cost was 2% ($24 billion), not 8% of health care spending.

[04 Venom]

I suspect Venom read the 8% statistic and snatched it up just because it supported his argument. It almost certainly doesn't account of things like the costs of defensive medicine.

Read paragraph 5 and footnote 6.

http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?id=226&imID=1&parentID=59

You keep falling deeper and deeper into the trap.

[k062693w]

MOPARS SUCK COCK !!!

[NickBeam]

Two questions: Who is the source of your 8% and other numbers? Second, why must you call us names to make your point? So far I haven't seen anyone call you a ignorant stupid fuck yet.

Brian

He probably got it the same place that Al Gore got that a few kilometers down in the earths crust it's "a few Milllllion Degreeee's"

[04 Venom]

MOPARS SUCK COCK !!!

:lol:

[04 Venom]

He probably got it the same place that Al Gore got that a few kilometers down in the earths crust it's "a few Milllllion Degreeee's"

You don't enjoy Hardcore being used as a tackling dummy?

[NickBeam]

You don't enjoy Hardcore being used as a tackling dummy?

LOL I know that wasn't to be taken literally, but that's really something I'd like to see.

[04 Venom]

LOL I know that wasn't to be taken literally, but that's really something I'd like to see.

I am sure he is a nice guy--I have never met him. But I do enjoy arguing with him (cause he's wrong all the time :lol:) and, judging by the count on this thread, somebody is getting entertained.

[04 Venom]

I am sure he is a nice guy--I have never met him. But I do enjoy arguing with him (cause he's wrong all the time :lol:) and, judging by the count on this thread, somebody is getting entertained.

I should also add that in a post several months ago, Hardcore did offer to piss on me if I was on fire, so he can't be all bad. :D

[NickBeam]

I should also add that in a post several months ago, Hardcore did offer to piss on me if I was on fire, so he can't be all bad. :D

LOL I remember that! You guys are just a wee bit shy of being drinking buddies I'd say.

[Waffles]

LOL I remember that! You guys are just a wee bit shy of being drinking buddies I'd say.

Ha, he'll be drinkin, I'll be pissin! :lol:

[bcoh5gt]

Sooooooooo....I went to my OB/GYN today for my appointment and gave them a paper to fill out so I can go on short term disability when I have the baby. You know what they say to me? We have a fifteen dollar charge to fill it out, will you pay now or when you pick it up? WTF??? Why should I pay you guys that to fill out ONE SHEET? I don't see how they get away with stuff like this? Isn't there some government protection against this?? It's bad enough the money situation that the family is in right now for you (and they do know about our situation with Chad etc.) to tell me they charge that for someone to sit there and just fill out a sheet. Makes me so mad!! :mad:

Yeah and they don't mind asking for your $30 co-pay and have you fill out the same 4 papers everytime. I just had back surgery and I know exactly what you are talking about B/S!!!!!

[04 Venom]

LOL I remember that! You guys are just a wee bit shy of being drinking buddies I'd say.

Hell yeah, I'll drink with him. Loser of the ensuing arguments buys the beer, so Hardcore needs to bring wads of cash or plastic. :D