LSX heads on a windsor bases motor???

[5.0calypso93lx]

Discuss:

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q219/EDC-FTI/SBFordLSHead.jpg

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q219/EDC-FTI/LSxSBF-Side01.jpg

[cstreu1026]

Why????????

[facemelter71]

Yea,why?

Tons of aftermarket companies with great flowing heads,and you want to stick LSX heads on it?

[Marker1989]

Interesting, to say the least. Whered u find this?

[5.0calypso93lx]

Why?

I think the LSX cylinder head design is one of the main reasons that engine line is so successful today. From what I've read, the closest head that compares to an LSX head is the High Port.

You've got some big Ford name guys converting to LSX based motors, so they're doing something right. I know it's chevy, but fast is fast.

Here's the thread I've been following, it's been dubbed project "Moses":

http://www.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51967&page=2

[dsmawd350]

HAHAHAHA

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

Bad ass! I would gladly swap my AFR 225s out for a set of LSX heads...

[5.0calypso93lx]

Bad ass! I would gladly swap my AFR 225s out for a set of LSX heads...

That's what I'm thinking. Even the best high flowing Ford heads, which are crazy expensive to begin with, are barely better than stock LSX heads that you can buy for next to nothing.

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

Yeah and then look at heads like the PRC LSX heads that flow like 415cfm on the intake side;)

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

When i can buy the used heads and the swap intake/headers/gaskets for less than i can buy aftermarket heads, and it all bolts on just as easy, then i'd probably consider it. However, if those swap parts ever do become readily available, i'm betting they're expensive just like Cleveland swap parts are because demand wouldn't be very high and they would be a niche part.

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Here's the thing i don't get....and forgive me if i'm just naive and don't know something here...i'm not trying to start an argument or debate, this is just an observation so bare with me.

Buddy of mine knows a guy with an LS1 TA. It's mostly stock...has a CAI, a chip and aftermarket exhaust. I have dyno graphs of my buddy's car, this TA and my car. Here's the graph:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/EVIL85SSP/Mustang%20Pics%20and%20Videos/MeKennyBrad.jpg


Ok...he made less hp and torque than either of us. Now, is that because both my engine and my buddy's are strokers? Does that really make that much difference? I know another guy who claims that it doesn't matter that it's nearly the same cubic inches...he says a stroker crank simply makes more power no matter what. Ok...maybe.

Then there's my engine in particular...with ported and valved 1969 heads which compared to the LS1 head must be archaic in terms of technology. Why did my car make more power if those heads are so badass? Ok...i KNOW the cam is a huge key in this, and i know that if you cam an LS1 you're really going to wake it up...so is that what's missing out of all this? Just a cam? I'm just trying to understand how simply swapping on LS1 heads onto my engine is going to make such a huge difference, if any. Like i said if i'm missing something, please someone explain....i admittedly don't know a lot about GM engines so fill me in.


Oh, the graph....Brad is the guy with the LS1, i'm the middle and Kenny is the top one.

[Jeff88coupe]

That graph seems pretty normal for a stockish LS1...my wife's '00 SS has very similar dyno numbers. There is a big difference between stock LS1 heads and the newer LS6 or 7 heads. Head air flow numbers are a good measure of the potiential to make hp for a head. But the key thing is the "whole combination" has to work together...heads,intake,cam,headers,ect for the package to work well. This is why you see some guys 331/347 strokers only make barely more than a decent 302/306...and why you see some well done 302/306 combo's make stroker kind of dyno #'s. The newer big LSx heads flow better stock than what some well ported big sbf heads flow (afr 225's, TFS high ports). Heck to get into the 380+cfm range on the intake side with a sbf head you need to look at Yates or Edelbrock victor type heads.

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Ok so it's the later LS6 and newer heads we're talking about then?

[Stangman]

thats different!! I'd do it!

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

Here's the thing i don't get....and forgive me if i'm just naive and don't know something here...i'm not trying to start an argument or debate, this is just an observation so bare with me.

Buddy of mine knows a guy with an LS1 TA. It's mostly stock...has a CAI, a chip and aftermarket exhaust. I have dyno graphs of my buddy's car, this TA and my car. Here's the graph:

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/EVIL85SSP/Mustang%20Pics%20and%20Videos/MeKennyBrad.jpg


Ok...he made less hp and torque than either of us. Now, is that because both my engine and my buddy's are strokers? Does that really make that much difference? I know another guy who claims that it doesn't matter that it's nearly the same cubic inches...he says a stroker crank simply makes more power no matter what. Ok...maybe.

Then there's my engine in particular...with ported and valved 1969 heads which compared to the LS1 head must be archaic in terms of technology. Why did my car make more power if those heads are so badass? Ok...i KNOW the cam is a huge key in this, and i know that if you cam an LS1 you're really going to wake it up...so is that what's missing out of all this? Just a cam? I'm just trying to understand how simply swapping on LS1 heads onto my engine is going to make such a huge difference, if any. Like i said if i'm missing something, please someone explain....i admittedly don't know a lot about GM engines so fill me in.


Oh, the graph....Brad is the guy with the LS1, i'm the middle and Kenny is the top one.

Are you really comparing a damn near stock ls1 to a cam'd stroker motor? A decent cam, cai, exhaust, tune will put that ls1 over 400rwhp... My ls2 with these mods made 443rwhp threw a irs and a 2 piece drive shaft:rolleyes:

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Are you really comparing a damn near stock ls1 to a cam'd stroker motor? A decent cam, cai, exhaust, tune will put that ls1 over 400rwhp... My ls2 with these mods made 443rwhp threw a irs and a 2 piece drive shaft:rolleyes:

Ok dude so bust my balls. Did you not see where i said i'm honestly asking for input? Geez man don't skim read.

Here's the bottom line...if a stock LS1 only makes that mind of power, then why would swapping on LS1 heads onto my stroker make any more power? I asked IS IT THE CAM that makes the difference?

I'm not stupid, i know it takes an h/c/i and stroker to even equal what a stock LSX engine is making...but if the heads are so badass then why don't they make MORE power stock? Again, is it just that the stock cam is that mild or what?

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

Not trying to bust your balls man. The stock cam is lame. The heads have great air flow potential but without a cam they can't take advantage of it. It would be like putting yates heads on a stock 5.0...

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Yeah i know man i'm just bein a smartass...but like i said i really don't know jack about GM engines...i know the LS engines have a pretty stellar reputation...must be something to it.

Are the parts for something like this ever going to be available or is this just custom made stuff?

[5.0calypso93lx]

Yeah i know man i'm just bein a smartass...but like i said i really don't know jack about GM engines...i know the LS engines have a pretty stellar reputation...must be something to it.

Are the parts for something like this ever going to be available or is this just custom made stuff?

The thread I'm following is still very new, so I'm assuming it will be a while if this ever even happens.

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

Yeah i know man i'm just bein a smartass...but like i said i really don't know jack about GM engines...i know the LS engines have a pretty stellar reputation...must be something to it.

Are the parts for something like this ever going to be available or is this just custom made stuff?

Probably just custom made. It's super cool but not really practical. Either the heads would have to have ford head stud pattern or the block would have to be drilled for the Chevy assuming the bore spacing is correct. The bad ass lsx heads need to be on a 4.125 bore anyway so it would have to be a dart block or an R block...

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

This isn't the first i've seen of this...probably 2 or 3 years ago someone on Stangnet was talking about this and had a picture similar to the one above...so it's been out there for a while. It would really be cool if it was cost effective to do. I really don't care for brand engine swaps but i could be persuaded to put GM heads on if they were really cheap (like junkyard cheap) and really made awesome power.

Here ya go, this is late '07 on Stangnet. The link in the thread is dead so there's no pics or anything...probably the same people doing it though.
http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/729047-ls1-heads-ford-302w.html

[k062693w]

It would just be cheaper to run an entire LSX motor and run 10s all day !!!

[facemelter71]

Are you really comparing a damn near stock ls1 to a cam'd stroker motor? A decent cam, cai, exhaust, tune will put that ls1 over 400rwhp... My ls2 with these mods made 443rwhp threw a irs and a 2 piece drive shaft:rolleyes:

Come on now Slow,so it was a two piece and an IRS.So you would have made 444.5rwhp with a 1 piece and a sold rear.LOL.Just kiddin.Dont sprout muscles and turn green on me.

If the airflow is truely that much,then you wouldnt gain much by simply a swap.You wouldnt be able to reach the potential of the heads since a small windsor (302) wouldnt be capable of getting the airflow with out some type of blower help.Am I right? wrong?

[5.0calypso93lx]

Come on now Slow,so it was a two piece and an IRS.So you would have made 444.5rwhp with a 1 piece and a sold rear.LOL.Just kiddin.Dont sprout muscles and turn green on me.

If the airflow is truely that much,then you wouldnt gain much by simply a swap.You wouldnt be able to reach the potential of the heads since a small windsor (302) wouldnt be capable of getting the airflow with out some type of blower help.Am I right? wrong?

You're right except what if you have a 408w stroker and have enough shortblock for the high flowing heads? That's where this setup would really shine if it can be made to be cost effective. Like previously stated, you've gotta have some serious high dollar heads with expensive port work to be able to keep up with some of the LSX heads.

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

Come on now Slow,so it was a two piece and an IRS.So you would have made 444.5rwhp with a 1 piece and a sold rear.LOL.Just kiddin.Dont sprout muscles and turn green on me


If the airflow is truely that much,then you wouldnt gain much by simply a swap.You wouldnt be able to reach the potential of the heads since a small windsor (302) wouldnt be capable of getting the airflow with out some type of blower help.Am I right? wrong?

Yup you are right Andy must suck to be out powered 100+ rwhp by a relatively stock GTO :lol:

Not all LSX heads flow huge numbers, like I said the ones that are really impressive require a 4.125 bore. But if you are asking if stock ls3 heads will make more power on your motor than your performer rpms ABSOLUTELY;)

[facemelter71]

True,but most of the time everyone is comparing an LSX to a 302.There is some cubic inches to be had.
Stroked 351 would really shine with some LSX heads.But cost is a huge factor.

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

See my comparison was aimed at a 347 since that's the same ballpark as a LSX engine is anyways.


Lets say i have a 347 with the same cam profile as a LSX engine and i swap over these heads...then what?

Is that like what happens when matter and anti-matter come into contact with each other? :lol:

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

See my comparison was aimed at a 347 since that's the same ballpark as a LSX engine is anyways.


Lets say i have a 347 with the same cam profile as a LSX engine and i swap over these heads...then what?

Is that like what happens when matter and anti-matter come into contact with each other? :lol:

If the cam is large enough to take advantage of the air flow the LSX heads WILL make more power. Besides them flowing better they have more port velocity and a better valve train geometry...

[facemelter71]

How would they have more port velocity if they have larger volume? Dont you lose velocity when you go larger?

Kinda like small port heads and a blower make more PSI,but larger port heads would have less PSI but more volume.

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

How would they have more port velocity if they have larger volume? Dont you lose velocity when you go larger?

Kinda like small port heads and a blower make more PSI,but larger port heads would have less PSI but more volume.

Cathedral ports...

[facemelter71]

Oh.Well that would make sense.

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

If the cam is large enough to take advantage of the air flow the LSX heads WILL make more power. Besides them flowing better they have more port velocity and a better valve train geometry...

See that's what i'm wanting to know. I guess the missing element in an LSX engine is the cam then, correct?

I know i sound like i'm bashing this but i'm just skeptical and curious. I had no idea the heads flowed that much though.

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

See that's what i'm wanting to know. I guess the missing element in an LSX engine is the cam then, correct?

I know i sound like i'm bashing this but i'm just skeptical and curious. I had no idea the heads flowed that much though.

Yes the cam is the missing component. That's why a good cam and minor bolt-ons pick up roughly 100rwhp...

[blackmark8]

personally chevys suck period all they are good for is scrap metal i would NEVER disgrace my ford by putting chevy crap on it id rather have the afr's and make up power else where just sayin...;)

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

personally chevys suck period all they are good for is scrap metal i would NEVER disgrace my ford by putting chevy crap on it id rather have the afr's and make up power else where just sayin...;)

I have the twin 88s to make up for the afr's. Kinda sound bitter about the Chevy thing must have been embarrassed by quite a few of them:lol: To say an LSX is crap shows your true intelligence:flipoff:

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Well, the one point that comes out through all of this is that the highest flowing head may be superior but it doesn't always make the car the fastest one at the track. If that were the case nobody would bother with Fords or anything else for that matter.

[boostanggt]

personally chevys suck period all they are good for is scrap metal i would NEVER disgrace my ford by putting chevy crap on it id rather have the afr's and make up power else where just sayin...;)

Haha I agree %100 :lol: I've never seen a camaro with just a cam swap and exhaust make over 450. I'm pretty sure it took a turbo for my car to get close to that.

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

Haha I agree %100 :lol: I've never seen a camaro with just a cam swap and exhaust make over 450. I'm pretty sure it took a turbo for my car to get close to that.

Ha ha you must not have seen the 10+ 2010 Camaros in the shop that you made the videos for:lol:

[Orodi]

I'm going with it's all in the combo there's a 331 N/A Carbed that makes 535 hp with 185 heads 750 demon and a custom gind cam. As far as the LS family chevy got that one right on the money as did ford with the 03-04 cobra motor. But pound for pound you cannot beat the LS family there is a shit ton of power to be made out of one for less money. I'm a total ford guy I hate cameros they suck to dirve and i think you need a mullet to drive one however PINKS of all places is the where the proof in LS motors is how many times do you see them outlasting and out powering fords? If I knew how to do it. and use my tremic I would have and LS2 on boost in my 95 GT.

[facemelter71]

Yup you are right Andy must suck to be out powered 100+ rwhp by a relatively stock GTO :lol:

Not all LSX heads flow huge numbers, like I said the ones that are really impressive require a 4.125 bore. But if you are asking if stock ls3 heads will make more power on your motor than your performer rpms ABSOLUTELY;)

shit,i would make more if i could get a tuner on it.lol.be nice to get some thing like that.maybe then we will see what it makes.

[Adam@S&MMotorsports]

shit,i would make more if i could get a tuner on it.lol.be nice to get some thing like that.maybe then we will see what it makes.

Ha ha just waiting on you buddy! Oh and my 65 fastback you haven't dropped off yet:lol:

[facemelter71]

Its my Insurance policy for you to work on my car.
No im just messin.Im tryin to get my dad in gear with the trailer.But I think ill do what I talked to you on the phone about with your buddies trailer.Just have to come get it.Hows that cart workin for ya.Ohhh,maybe this sunday I can run out there and grab it.Hmmm.Ill see what the weather is going to do and get with ya.