Is an NA build really worth it??

[beefcake]

What are the pros and cons really to going n/a?

Was thinkin about starting out with a stage 2 or 3 head and some cams and some long tubes. Was reading a 5.0 article and that seemed to get around 360rwhp our of an 09 i think, that was with a jlt as well.

I've seen some base non intercooled kits for around $3600 out there in the paxton and stuff that should get around that 400 mark.

I guess what i'm debating is doing something different as the last 7 cars i've had were all s/c'd.

The debate comes in that eventually whether n/a or s/c i'd like to possibly do a built motor. n/a, do a high compression stroker or 5.0 or something. s/c do a lower compression. obviously with the s/c there is more room to grow if you want to get into the 500+ numbers.

Just looking for thoughts, impressions, etc..

[89notch]

Turbo it...try something new :lol:

[beefcake]

Turbo it...try something new :lol:

thought about that too..........

[bobtsgt]

do a twin turbo/supercharger combo. you haven't done that :D

[beefcake]

do a twin turbo/supercharger combo. you haven't done that :D

this is tech section, time for some seriousness lol

[Pitbull1052]

I think a NA set up would be cooler myself Beef, I mean anyone can throw a huffer on and be a 500 but to do it without......... I think a stroked E85 would be sweet!

[beefcake]

biggest con is probably cost more. what are the other cons on n/a?

[RACEME]

n/a usually means lots more rpm's than forced induction. An N/A motor usually hurts stuff worse when something breaks.

Beef has has a turbo! The BUSA!

[9cobra4]

I think a 5.0 liter stroker would be cool with h/c/i, if it wasn't enough you could always throw a 100 shot on it if you're a fan of nitrous?

[Markcore]

One pro for staying n/a would be the reliability. Once the tune is set, you don't have the issues boosted setups do with extreme temperatures.

[bobtsgt]

well being serious a nice 5.0L would great heads and cams would be a good set up. But doing more of a budget just bore it out. Stroking a mod isn't like stroking a pushrod. Doing it up like a 5.0L should put you over the 400 mark pretty easily. The higher RPMs would be the only real problem but on the streets you won't be above 6K much. Unless you forget to shift out of first goin down beechmont lol

[tdm309]

I think it depends alot on what kind of power level you are wanting to be at. On a N/A application you have to built a pretty wild mod motor to make 500 to the wheel. Plus once you build it then the maintenance side comes into affect as to how long the engine will last before needing freshened. So I guess the big question is how much power do you want to make. If its 500 or more then I would say put a turbo on it.

[stocknotch]

So whats the weak link in these motors?? Seems like every muscle car that comes out has that one weak link that hinders the idea of making big power.

[bobtsgt]

might still be the rods. not sure if the newer power plants have stronger rods like the 03-04 cobras got

[cstreu1026]

I think it depends alot on what kind of power level you are wanting to be at. On a N/A application you have to built a pretty wild mod motor to make 500 to the wheel. Plus once you build it then the maintenance side comes into affect as to how long the engine will last before needing freshened. So I guess the big question is how much power do you want to make. If its 500 or more then I would say put a turbo on it.

Terry won't have it long enough to worry about having to freshening up a high RPM NA engine.

I wanted to do an NA build but decided I'd never get the power I wanted in street friendly set up so I bought a blower.

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

I'd say it depends on your power goals. If you want 600hp...probably not the best way to go for a street car.

I rememeber Jim's Cobra when it was all motor...that thing was NASTY.

[onefastcobra]

I did a straight n/a set up on my cobra its fast as shit compared to stock but i was drinking water for meals for a while. Its very expensive im up to 6k in mods already

[331TwistedWedge]

i like all motor setups ... the respect factor is there ... like someone mentioned above, anyone can put boost on something and run ... all motor setups take some thought and skill ... i guess it all depends on what you want out of the car ...

i say go for 10s on motor ...

[Squale iii]

n/a usually means lots more rpm's than forced induction. An N/A motor usually hurts stuff worse when something breaks.

Beef has has a turbo! The BUSA!

I don't know about you, but most of the people I know who blow their shit up have run a turbo or nitrous. Most people I know with properly setup n/a motors don't have any issues. Obviously there's alot more to it than turbo/nitrous...if they are tuned properly and not too excessive they can be quite reliable too! I'm just saying I know tons more people blowing their shit up w/turbo kits than n/a. Probably b/c it's soooo easy to say "hey i want 100whp more for this race, lemme make one little tweak here...k lets do it!" Same thing with nitrous. I know people who run 150 shots on fbodies all day, but once you step out of the healthy range to say, 200 on a stock ls1, things don't last as long!

[97gt]

I don't know about you, but most of the people I know who blow their shit up have run a turbo or nitrous. Most people I know with properly setup n/a motors don't have any issues. Obviously there's alot more to it than turbo/nitrous...if they are tuned properly and not too excessive they can be quite reliable too! I'm just saying I know tons more people blowing their shit up w/turbo kits than n/a. Probably b/c it's soooo easy to say "hey i want 100whp more for this race, lemme make one little tweak here...k lets do it!" Same thing with nitrous. I know people who run 150 shots on fbodies all day, but once you step out of the healthy range to say, 200 on a stock ls1, things don't last as long!

exactly correct in my mind if your going n/a build it big and right or do a turbo and dont blow it up like my buddy did after i got it all built for him because his setup would run 25lbs so he figured he would try it on stock bottom end.

[cstreu1026]

I don't know about you, but most of the people I know who blow their shit up have run a turbo or nitrous. Most people I know with properly setup n/a motors don't have any issues. Obviously there's alot more to it than turbo/nitrous...if they are tuned properly and not too excessive they can be quite reliable too! I'm just saying I know tons more people blowing their shit up w/turbo kits than n/a. Probably b/c it's soooo easy to say "hey i want 100whp more for this race, lemme make one little tweak here...k lets do it!" Same thing with nitrous. I know people who run 150 shots on fbodies all day, but once you step out of the healthy range to say, 200 on a stock ls1, things don't last as long!

Well to make power with a mod motor you are going to be spinning well beyond what your average NA push rod motor sees. We figured out with what I had planned for an NA build I was going to see upwards of 8000 RPM and that causes all sort of issues.

[04 Venom]

Makes you drool for the 5.0 OHC next year: 412 n/a horsepower; forged internals; 7k redline; and, it only weighs 430 lbs. :D

[Paul408Notch]

Sell it and buy the next car on your list.

[TurboNG]

http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,19097.0.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ThFWc45h5c
I think it's worth it. I'm a little under this guys mark but not to far. I love N/A

[TurboNG]

I don't know about you, but most of the people I know who blow their shit up have run a turbo or nitrous. Most people I know with properly setup n/a motors don't have any issues. Obviously there's alot more to it than turbo/nitrous...if they are tuned properly and not too excessive they can be quite reliable too! I'm just saying I know tons more people blowing their shit up w/turbo kits than n/a. Probably b/c it's soooo easy to say "hey i want 100whp more for this race, lemme make one little tweak here...k lets do it!" Same thing with nitrous. I know people who run 150 shots on fbodies all day, but once you step out of the healthy range to say, 200 on a stock ls1, things don't last as long!

It's not because of the set up its the idiot using it. If it's tuned and the owner don't try and push it past the tune then there wouldn't be any issues. Unless God just don't like you like in my case.:bigthumb

[05yellowgt]

Terry, 350rwhp is attainable with just cams and bolt on's. Markcore's car makes right around 350rwhp I am pretty sure with Stage 1 thumper cams, long tubes, CMCP deletes, and JLT intake. It might have underdrives but I'm not sure. It just depends on what power level you want to get to.

Of course you could go the route of doing the sell the 10' 3v for the 11' 4v mod. Instant 100hp mod!

[beefcake]

Terry, 350rwhp is attainable with just cams and bolt on's. Markcore's car makes right around 350rwhp I am pretty sure with Stage 1 thumper cams, long tubes, CMCP deletes, and JLT intake. It might have underdrives but I'm not sure. It just depends on what power level you want to get to.

Of course you could go the route of doing the sell the 10' 3v for the 11' 4v mod. Instant 100hp mod!

yeah, but with the hit you take, you could almost buy a s/c

[BlazinEagle]

How about a remote mount turbo?

[firestang70]

For the money invested I'd say get a used s/c or t/c. A set of ported heads with cams,springs,retainers installed will cost almost the same as a used kit.

[TurboNG]

But N/A cars run lower FP and injectors, 600hp S/C or T/C would need 40+ size injectors and a external fuel pump to insure you get enough fuel, N/A cars could keep the internal pump and use 24+ injectors. Ect Ect. The N/a car would need less support mods. You could also street tune a N/A car without electronics verses a SC/TC car would need a chip and tuning costing more money then a N/A car

[331TwistedWedge]

yeah, but with the hit you take, you could almost buy a s/c

thats the easy way out ... challenge yourself ... an all motor 10 sec street car is impressive ...

[Timido]

An NA street car would be fun but it would take a lot of RPM CAM and cylinder heads to get a 4.6 based motor to run that. Look at Factory Stock and Pure Street cars then ask them how much they have in there motors. I would hang a turbo on that thing. I think it would have the cool factor and lots of fun factor.

[stocknotch]

Last time I checked, a turbo'd/supercharged 400+rwhp car beats an N/A 350rwhp car everyday of the week. Plus, stay out of boost and you still get good gas mileage. And if you buy a kit, just bolt it on. You build a motor and your 09 mustang is on jackstands waiting on an engine builder and you have to pull the motor and all that BS! Who wants to do all that when race season is starting??

[onefastcobra]

Regardless of the set-up your internals need to be built for high hp or you will be suffering early or later on down the line. Either route you choose is gonna take a hit out of your pocket but in the end a N/A 400hp car or a boosted 400hp car is gonna be bad ass just depends on what set-up you will be more proud of in the end.

[JET50213]

I've spent enough on my NA 2v to cover the cost for a KB....I really want a KB!!! I say...if you have the funds...forced induction!!

[redfirepearlgt]

yeah, but with the hit you take, you could almost buy a s/c

Beef, That is why I went with S/C pacakge on my 05. After looking at what I could gain with LT's, stage 1 cams, 4.10 gears, CAI, and tune I was looking at the 3,000 mark for a 50 HP increase. Brenspeed was offering a N/I vortex package that was making around 400 for about 4200 installed. BUT, I was concerned with reliability on the N/I setup. Nobody around here has done a Saleen setup so I went stage II which did not require any upgrade to the fuel flow system aside from 39# fuel injectors. The systern is intercooled and reliable. As well, Comp makes super charger grind stage 1 and 2 cams for S/C applications so that opens the door to future upgrades. With my budget getting the overall best bang for the buck while maintaining daily driveability was a must.

Steeda is now offering a 302 stroker kit for the 3 valve which requires no boring for 2500.00. Brenspeed is offereing short block strokers (all forged internals 8.5:1) for around 3299.00 and up come April 1. There are a lot of avenues to go if you just take a look at what is being released this year for the 3 valve setup.

You could likely stroke your 3 valve, go stage 2 thumper cams, CAI/tune, add the new available intake, cook's L/T headers, delete plates, 62mm TB, throw in a 4.10 gear and some LCA's (BTW you have those already LOL) and have a nice running N/A setup that makes right around 400-420 at the crank at a conservative guess. Yeah it will likely cost more, but hey, for a guy with your cash flow, do it how you want to. You are fortunate to have the success that allows you that luxury. Enjoy it and do what wills you. I am happy for your success taht gives you some room to have some fun. When you get it ready let us S197 owners know and we can all meet up at E20 and make a pass or two and have some fun.

[mustang8998]

When you get it ready let us S197 owners know and we can all BE READY TO BUY IT, SINCE IT WILL BE FOR SALE!

I needed to correct that last sentence, for you!

[beefcake]

Beef, That is why I went with S/C pacakge on my 05. After looking at what I could gain with LT's, stage 1 cams, 4.10 gears, CAI, and tune I was looking at the 3,000 mark for a 50 HP increase. Brenspeed was offering a N/I vortex package that was making around 400 for about 4200 installed. BUT, I was concerned with reliability on the N/I setup. Nobody around here has done a Saleen setup so I went stage II which did not require any upgrade to the fuel flow system aside from 39# fuel injectors. The systern is intercooled and reliable. As well, Comp makes super charger grind stage 1 and 2 cams for S/C applications so that opens the door to future upgrades. With my budget getting the overall best bang for the buck while maintaining daily driveability was a must.

Steeda is now offering a 302 stroker kit for the 3 valve which requires no boring for 2500.00. Brenspeed is offereing short block strokers (all forged internals 8.5:1) for around 3299.00 and up come April 1. There are a lot of avenues to go if you just take a look at what is being released this year for the 3 valve setup.

You could likely stroke your 3 valve, go stage 2 thumper cams, CAI/tune, add the new available intake, cook's L/T headers, delete plates, 62mm TB, throw in a 4.10 gear and some LCA's (BTW you have those already LOL) and have a nice running N/A setup that makes right around 400-420 at the crank at a conservative guess. Yeah it will likely cost more, but hey, for a guy with your cash flow, do it how you want to. You are fortunate to have the success that allows you that luxury. Enjoy it and do what wills you. I am happy for your success taht gives you some room to have some fun. When you get it ready let us S197 owners know and we can all meet up at E20 and make a pass or two and have some fun.

i saw the brenspeed package without the intercooler for 4549, 100 off if they install, 100 off if you drive, 200 off since i already have the xcal 2, 4149 does seem pretty reasonable for a kit installed

i would think at the 400rwhp mark you would be ok non intercooled.

what about a stage 3 cam that you change the springs with?? what kind of power would that make with some lt's

[redfirepearlgt]

i saw the brenspeed package without the intercooler for 4549, 100 off if they install, 100 off if you drive, 200 off since i already have the xcal 2, 4149 does seem pretty reasonable for a kit installed

i would think at the 400rwhp mark you would be ok non intercooled.

what about a stage 3 cam that you change the springs with?? what kind of power would that make with some lt's

Wow beef I have no idea stepping up to that level. My guess would be that while an increase of HP would surely be seen, driveability would begin to possibly come into play. Many of the higher stage cams also begin to loose a little torque on the bottom end and often have recommendations for stepping up into a 4.10 or even 4.30 gear or lower to get the best out of the car for oeverall performance.

Brent @ Brenspeed knows a lot about the S197 3 valve setup and what you can expect. That is truly their specialty. Not taking anything away from the local guys here, but they specialize in mustangs only with the exception of a couple of other ford modifications. These guys research setups and test run things before they release or sell them. They even offer their own version of the S197 mustang in an aftermarket setup.

My decision to go twin screw hinged on the fact that I could make slightly better HP and a much better torque ouput across the band width than what the Vortex or Paxton setup would make. Add to that the intercooling for more consistant and safer operation justified my over the top purchase in the end that my wife STILL DOES NOT KNOW ABOUT LOL!!! KEEP IT QUIET GUYS! LOL!!!

You have so many avenues you can take with this setup. You have a whole new world available to you from cams, to edelbrock super charger, to delete plates, gears, suspension, drive shafts, cooling, CAI's, tuning, turbos, forged stroker kits, etc. I would say the most versatile engine with respect to mods since the 5.0 L. My opinion.

Keep us posted on your upgrades. See ya!

[na svt]

You can build a 4.6 stroker that will make over 400rwhp,it won't have to be spun over 7500rpm and it won't break the bank either. You can even get there with a 281ci engine and still keep the rpms at 7500 or less.

Makes you drool for the 5.0 OHC next year: 412 n/a horsepower; forged internals; 7k redline; and, it only weighs 430 lbs. :D
The new 5.0 has hypereutectic pistons and poweder metal rods just like all other non-03/04 cobra 4.6s.

[onefastcobra]

You can build a 4.6 stroker that will make over 400rwhp,it won't have to be spun over 7500rpm and it won't break the bank either. You can even get there with a 281ci engine and still keep the rpms at 7500 or less.

The new 5.0 has hypereutectic pistons and poweder metal rods just like all other non-03/04 cobra 4.6s.

very true if i didnt blow mine up i think i would have ony spent 2800 to stroke it

[Drivermod]

In a big heavy street car like yours I would put a twin screw on it and never look back. I love N/A cars at the strip but they aren't as much fun on the street.

[redfirepearlgt]

In a big heavy street car like yours I would put a twin screw on it and never look back. I love N/A cars at the strip but they aren't as much fun on the street.

2005-2010 S197 Mustang GT curb weight (5sp)= 3336

2010 Camaro SS curb weight (6sp) = 3800

I guess that makes the Camaro an elephant then. LOL!!!

[2007ShelbyCobra]

I couldnt say I know which is better but... IMO, n/a is the way to go. Theres nothing better than a new car with some good hp with a big thumpy cam and deep sound.

[Waffles]

N/A with a shot of laugh gas for when ya need it, I think. My Teksid build, as slow as it might be going, gets a Livernois forged stroker bottom end @ 12:1 compression. Mike Bell ported my B heads, and they'll get new cams and springs. Also, swapping to E85 and an SRI. Nothing wrong with boost, but I think I'll be happier this way.

[beefcake]

keep it coming guys,

if i don't want to spend a ton this year, what would be the best route for a little more ummpph, a good set of cams (cams / springs)

[redfirepearlgt]

keep it coming guys,

if i don't want to spend a ton this year, what would be the best route for a little more ummpph, a good set of cams (cams / springs)

Beef, I checked up a little more on those stage three cams. THey also recommend porting the heads to maximize results.

Define "don't want to spend a ton this year". 1,2,3,4000? Several guys have done the stage two thumpers with a CAI and tune and gotten a great result that can later be built upon. If you a re set on staying N/A then do the rear end as well. The S197 has 31 spline rear axles so you are already ahead of the game with respect to that. Throw a 4.10 R/P in the thing IF staying N/A then next spring add a 62mm throttle body and delete plates. There are sooooo many avenues you can go and still keep your future upgrade options open to bigger and better without having to backtrack.

Mine started just CAI and tune. Next thing I knew I was where I am now. This spring takes me to drivetrain upgrades, then next spring somes more power. I hope the job stays there and the economy picks up so I can see it all through.

My only no-no would be NO2. Not a fan of it, never have been. My personal opinion.

[Drivermod]

2005-2010 S197 Mustang GT curb weight (5sp)= 3336

2010 Camaro SS curb weight (6sp) = 3800

I guess that makes the Camaro an elephant then. LOL!!!

Yes it does!:lol:

I just googled it and the curb weight I came up with for a 5 spd 2010 GT was 3533. Add Beefcake (he has that name for a reason, sorry Terry ;)) and your up to around 3800 lbs give or take. Pretty heavy for an N/A car unless you are gonna gear the crap out of it. I stand by my recommendation.

[2007ShelbyCobra]

EVERYWHERE ive read or heard says the camaro is OVER 4000 pounds, but i cannot say how accurate their measurements were, because i was not there :)

[Lexstang]

Livernois motorsports had a writeup about making 451hp (on an engine dyno) with their ported 3v heads and some cams. If i remember correctly they were still using stock intake. I wouldn't increase compression ratio because even though you gain a small percentage you severely limit your options for the sauce or forced induction. I think if your going to beef the internals up then spend a few more dollars and stroke and you are looking at 7 percent more displacement and power. The bottle can always be resold if you wanted to upgrade to a blower or turbo. Anything you do to increase the NA power is multiplied with boost.