The real story? longtubes vs shortie opinions

[331lx]

I just got done with my new 331 and I am finishing up the loose ends now. My question is, is it really worth it to run longtubes or will a shorty be just as good. I saw many fast cars last year at the track running shorties and was wondering if there really is a gain to b found by switching to longtubes. I am gonna buy new headers soon so I am looking for your guys opinions from experience with either of these thanks

[mustangboy]

My 347 made 400hp to the wheel with equal shorty bbk's which will be for sale here shortly.:D

[331lx]

Anybody else?

[mustang_gt88]

I have had both and the shorties are easyer to deal with, my vote shorties

[kennebellcobra]

Not a stroker but my old car I switched from shorties to longtubes, gained nothing on the dyno and nothing at the track so I stuck with shorties on the coupe.

[331lx]

I always hear longtubes are better but I have never seen rock hard evidence that longtubes make more. I have a set of shorties already and was gonna switch but don't wanna waste money if no positives will come out of it

[mustangboy]

Honestly I would stick with what you have as long as they are in good working condition. At best the gains will be marginal and probably not worth the investment.

[331lx]

Thanks for all the opinions guys I appreciate it.

[kennebellcobra]

Spend some time cleaning up the welds inside the tubes and opening the ball flange, I spent 8+ hours on mine and they didn't even look that bad:lol:

[full force]

I always liked long tubes for the ease of taking converters on and off, I had emissions here... I like the look of long tubes too, I know they make more power with big HP and power adders, but if you are under 500 HP you will not see anything.

[NXcoupe]

I would go with MAC's 1 3/4 shorties they have. I put those on my car and saw a slight gain. I also spend some time on the ports and cones to open up flow.

[331lx]

Kennebellecobra.... Wow I never thought of porting and cleaning up mine. I read your whole thread on corral and ur attention to detail is second to none which explains y ur car runs so well. I will prolly stick with my shorties and clean em up a bit with the die grinder. Any other opinions?

[90fastgt]

i have bbk longtubes an i hate them there terrible to deal with if you have to change a starter or change a clutch

[700hp04mystic]

agree no real gain on the long tubes other than alot of headache. unless u have a big inch motor then i say long tubes 1 7/8 kooks or something.

[Rick93coupe]

Shorties for sure. If you want to get really slick, ditch the ball flange and replace it with a V-band. The next time you look at the ball flange you'll see how restrictive they have to be to make that seal.

[331lx]

Wow guys I am glad to hear the truth finally come out. Everyone on other forums kept drilling longtubes but never provided and et or hp gains

[Timido]

On a all out RPM Race motor they are worth power. On a street car I would not want the trouble.

[jktruckin06]

Any sound or resonance difference between them. Also with Shorties how much difference between "normal" length and equal length?

[jccox77]

I had long tubes on a car that runs mid 12's ended up changing to shortysand the it runs the same times still there is a slight difference in sound yes but worth the hassle no

[flyin2jz]

I gained a little by porting out the welding cast inside the tubes where the headers bolt to the head. I dyno everything and know that this along with opening the ball part of the flange at the x or h pipe works.

[Pitbull1052]

I have long tubes on my 347 and I don't see the hastle with them. I have a tubular k and I have no issues working around them, on the starter or anything else. Even pulling the motor I don't have to pull the headers....... I don't like the look of the flanges and what not on the shorties but that's my .02..... as far as hp gains unless you're going to a different size collector etc you won't see any difference.... I do notice that with my long tubes my floor and console area doent seem to get as hot as where my mac shorties in the summer I almost couldnt wear shorts in the car cause it would get so hot.

[AntiRice427]

I'm suprised to see all of the positive comments about shorty's. I thought I was the only one that liked them. Most people don't believe that i made 400 to the wheels with shorty's on my car when I tell them. I can't stand working on cars with long tube headers.

[bbfstanger]

i ran a set of untouched bbk unequal length in the 10's
so i think theyll work just fine.
i dont like the equal length cause they make it a pita to change some plugs.
on a 500+hp engine id run nothing but longtubes
got 2in. longtubes for my 408w

[331lx]

I'm suprised to see all of the positive comments about shorty's. I thought I was the only one that liked them. Most people don't believe that i made 400 to the wheels with shorty's on my car when I tell them. I can't stand working on cars with long tube headers.

i agree very pita especially with a blowproof housing when changing clutch. expierienced this hassle with my cousins (90fastgt) car

[331lx]

i believe shorties are louder and longtubes are deeper. if i am wrong some one please correct me

[Rick93coupe]

You could look into a set of mid length headers for the best of both worlds. You'd need to modify your h-pipe to work.

[SCHMUCKINGHAM]

You could look into a set of mid length headers for the best of both worlds. You'd need to modify your h-pipe to work.

I want to try a set of these

[full force]

I have long tubes on my 347 and I don't see the hastle with them. I have a tubular k and I have no issues working around them, on the starter or anything else. Even pulling the motor I don't have to pull the headers....... I don't like the look of the flanges and what not on the shorties but that's my .02..... as far as hp gains unless you're going to a different size collector etc you won't see any difference.... I do notice that with my long tubes my floor and console area doent seem to get as hot as where my mac shorties in the summer I almost couldnt wear shorts in the car cause it would get so hot.

I agree with this, I had no issues either, I had Mac, I do not like the BBK long tubes..

[full force]

Long tubes sound the best iwht a Dr. Gas X-pipe too, not the same sound with shortys...

[Goober]

The long tube/shorty header debate is mute if the rest of your exhaust system is restricting the flow downstream. Just sayin'

[90fastgt]

I like the sound of my longtubes over shorties sounds more throaty to me but if i had it to do over again i would definetley go shorties just for the ease of installation an clutch change etc. but when i do a tubular k member it may change my mind on the subject

[full force]

The long tube/shorty header debate is mute if the rest of your exhaust system is restricting the flow downstream. Just sayin'

Exhaust is not as restrictive as you think in most cases.... my buddy went 9.80's with a 2 1/2" cat-back and everyone said he was losing a ton of power..for fun we took off his H-pipe and ran open long tubes, 1 3/4" and gained a tenth....and to think the cat-back was Dynomax super turbos, he wanted it as quiet as possible for sleeper reasons...

[Goober]

On how big of a motor? Weight? Power adders? I can go 9.80's on a turbo 'Busa with a pea shooter exhaust.

[full force]

358 small block, car was full street car with power everything, had some nitrous, would run 10.40 on engine..

[331lx]

I put the shorties on my motor so we c how they do on track this year I might get a itch to try open longtubes but the ease of my shorties is very convienent

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

I'll probably be going with a 1 3/4 shorty eventually, mainly for ground clearance. My Mac long tubes hit on large speed bumps and most fast food driveways. I'd like to lower my car just a bit more but i can't with these headers. Whatever you get, get them with a solid flange..you don't wanna deal with individual flanges on shorties after they've heated up and cooled and warped a few times. Ford Motorsport make some of the nicest shorties i've seen.

[331lx]

I would really like a set of Anderson big tube shorties

[Brandon Alsept]

Now I am curious about one thing. Has anyone stopped and thought why Longtubes didn't gain anything?

I like running longtubes on everything and I mean from a street car to a all out race car.

[331lx]

Now I am curious about one thing. Has anyone stopped and thought why Longtubes didn't gain anything?

I like running longtubes on everything and I mean from a street car to a all out race car.

agreed, any logic behind this:eek:

[jktruckin06]

ok... i've never put longtubes or shorties, but as far as my "google-fu" can tell is that the longtubes create more torque, and low to mid range power.

quoted off of physicsforums this is the best explanation i've found

"This is a question of exhuast gas scavenging efficiency. Effective scavenging is an extremely important factor to consider in maximizing your engine's volumetric efficiency, or "V.E." Although the most thorough answer is one that takes far too long to put in this post, Ill give you the shortened one.
Long tube headers are headers where your primary tubes are on average, at least 28" in length, they are also much more narrow that thier short tube counter parts. These type of headers, generally speaking, are best when used on a street rod, or "smoke show" application. Basically, lighting up the tires from stoplight to stoplight, generally with a mid to low power band. This is because of the way the engine breathes at mid and lower RPM's.

At the low to mid end, the best way to maximize your scavenging effect, thus helping to maximize your engine's V.E., Is to move the exhuast out of the engine as fast as possible, or with as much velocity as possible. Long tubes work best for this because of their length, and their width (well, lack of width). Thier length allows an elongated path for the gas to flow, thus allowing the gas to leave the cylinder with more speed because the gas has more time to gain velocity before it hits the collector.

Now, you've heard car enthusiasts state that ANY restriction is bad for a motor, no matter what. This is not completly true, in your exhaust, small, strategically placed, smooth mandrel restrictions can be a good thing due to the fact that well place, correct sized restrictions followed by larger openings actually speed up exhuast gas flow. So the smaller diameter tubes actually serve your scavenging better in the mid and low ranges.

Mid and low ranges dont produce alot of actual exhuast volume, so small tubes dont restrict or "back up" flow.

LARGE, SHORT TUBE HEADERS MAKE FOR "LAZY" EXHUAST GAS SPEED WHEN EXHUAST VOLUME IS LOW!! (as it is in the low and mid range).

However, if you dont even begin to tip into your power band untill about 3700, you may consider short tubes. High RPM operation in a big motor (not talking about 4 bangers here), yeild LARGE amounts of exhuast gas discharge. THIS is where you need the larger diameter tubes, to get more volume out of the cylinder. THIS is where you can loose power due to pumping losses on the exhuast stroke. In an ideal world, your exhuast system would be soooo effective, that by the time that pistion STARTS coming up on the exhuast stroke, your ports and headers will have scavenged all exhuast gas out of the cylinder during the duration of the exhuast pulse. If there's no sizable amount to push out, there in a low pressure area in the cylinder (also known as vacuum), almost causing a "pulling up" affect on the piston. So, your not loosing power by pushing, your gaining power by being pulled."

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Now I am curious about one thing. Has anyone stopped and thought why Longtubes didn't gain anything?

I like running longtubes on everything and I mean from a street car to a all out race car.

Well if i had to guess, i would say one of a couple reasons:

1) the engine in question simply didn't flow enough air IN to require more breathing OUT

2) there was another bottleneck somewhere else preventing any gains from happening


I've always felt that having them on my car was part of why it has ran the times it has ran, but i've never ran it with shorties so that's a guess.

[331lx]

The debate between longtubes and shorties will prolly never be settled. I am sure there is no clear cut winner between either. Each and every engine will probably act differently to either one.

[jktruckin06]

The debate between longtubes and shorties will prolly never be settled.

you just made me think of will ferrell in anchorman... "scholars maintain that the translation was lost 100s of years ago"

it's just very scientific it sounds like. i'm sure if you found the right equations and numbers, you could plug in any motor size at certain rpms and find out what diameter and length header would give you the best scavenging of exhaust

[jktruckin06]

http://www.autoservicetech.com/vecalculator.html

this would be a very interesting "experiment" to see what benefits long tubes or shorties have on a variety of motor combinations.

i just hope my mac long tubes and dr gas x pipe do the trick:bigthumb

[AntiRice427]

Now I am curious about one thing. Has anyone stopped and thought why Longtubes didn't gain anything?

I like running longtubes on everything and I mean from a street car to a all out race car.

Probably because they didn't change mufflers and kept the same style mid pipe.

[Rick93coupe]

I dont think theres any doubt that a properly sized longtube will make a few more hp, the only question is at what cost?

[Brandon Alsept]

I have never saw a shortie beat a longtube on any of the testing I have been involved in.

Just think of the entire package, the headers are only one part of the puzzle

[Jake]

ok... i've never put longtubes or shorties, but as far as my "google-fu" can tell is that the longtubes create more torque, and low to mid range power.

quoted off of physicsforums this is the best explanation i've found

"This is a question of exhuast gas scavenging efficiency. Effective scavenging is an extremely important factor to consider in maximizing your engine's volumetric efficiency, or "V.E." Although the most thorough answer is one that takes far too long to put in this post, Ill give you the shortened one.
Long tube headers are headers where your primary tubes are on average, at least 28" in length, they are also much more narrow that thier short tube counter parts. These type of headers, generally speaking, are best when used on a street rod, or "smoke show" application. Basically, lighting up the tires from stoplight to stoplight, generally with a mid to low power band. This is because of the way the engine breathes at mid and lower RPM's.

At the low to mid end, the best way to maximize your scavenging effect, thus helping to maximize your engine's V.E., Is to move the exhuast out of the engine as fast as possible, or with as much velocity as possible. Long tubes work best for this because of their length, and their width (well, lack of width). Thier length allows an elongated path for the gas to flow, thus allowing the gas to leave the cylinder with more speed because the gas has more time to gain velocity before it hits the collector.

Now, you've heard car enthusiasts state that ANY restriction is bad for a motor, no matter what. This is not completly true, in your exhaust, small, strategically placed, smooth mandrel restrictions can be a good thing due to the fact that well place, correct sized restrictions followed by larger openings actually speed up exhuast gas flow. So the smaller diameter tubes actually serve your scavenging better in the mid and low ranges.

Mid and low ranges dont produce alot of actual exhuast volume, so small tubes dont restrict or "back up" flow.

LARGE, SHORT TUBE HEADERS MAKE FOR "LAZY" EXHUAST GAS SPEED WHEN EXHUAST VOLUME IS LOW!! (as it is in the low and mid range).

However, if you dont even begin to tip into your power band untill about 3700, you may consider short tubes. High RPM operation in a big motor (not talking about 4 bangers here), yeild LARGE amounts of exhuast gas discharge. THIS is where you need the larger diameter tubes, to get more volume out of the cylinder. THIS is where you can loose power due to pumping losses on the exhuast stroke. In an ideal world, your exhuast system would be soooo effective, that by the time that pistion STARTS coming up on the exhuast stroke, your ports and headers will have scavenged all exhuast gas out of the cylinder during the duration of the exhuast pulse. If there's no sizable amount to push out, there in a low pressure area in the cylinder (also known as vacuum), almost causing a "pulling up" affect on the piston. So, your not loosing power by pushing, your gaining power by being pulled."

from my understanding, this is completely wrong. longtubes make power higher up in the rpm range but you lose low end. where as shorties provide the adequate backpressure to allow you to make the low end power. if this is the case, it may be why most dont see or feel any real gains from longtubes. they simply arent spinning their engines high enough to see a benefit. I cant remember where I think I read this, but it made sense to me in the same sense that intake runner length effects where you make power. just in the opposite way. this is just speculation since I have no evidence or sources to quote though.

[331lx]

from my understanding, this is completely wrong. longtubes make power higher up in the rpm range but you lose low end. where as shorties provide the adequate backpressure to allow you to make the low end power. if this is the case, it may be why most dont see or feel any real gains from longtubes. they simply arent spinning their engines high enough to see a benefit. I cant remember where I think I read this, but it made sense to me in the same sense that intake runner length effects where you make power. just in the opposite way. this is just speculation since I have no evidence or sources to quote though.
So who is right which one is it I am even more stumped now.

[jktruckin06]

haha... i started confused, i'll go out confused

[90fastgt]

I've always heard long tubes where better low end myself but that's just what I have heard so I can't say for sure it would be interesting to find out for sure if long tubes wasn't such a pain to get on an off with a stock. K member I would take them off an try a set of Shorties to see if I could tell a difference

[Jake]

like I said, don't take my word as gospel. that's just what I thought, and it makes the most sense to me.

[331lx]

Guess we will never know unless someone does a dyno and track comparison between the two.

[duststang]

Guess we will never know unless someone does a dyno and track comparison between the two.

yeah that would be nice. Every test I have seen is different setup so not a true comparison.

[Pops Fun]

Stolen from my post on stangnet:

you will probably be interested to read this test with controlled numbers and 70 pulls, the hooker longtubes did not increase peak HP over any of the shorties out there.

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.co...edia/long1.htm (http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/dmdocuments/media/long1.htm)

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Make note that they're testing on a forced induction engine. I'm sure running NA is a whole different story.

[jktruckin06]

very nice write up, and very informative... i think the one thing i learned from it is use what has the best performance for the price, and ease of installation.

[331lx]

Make note that they're testing on a forced induction engine. I'm sure running NA is a whole different story.
I agree each header prolly react differently to N/A

[331lx]

very nice write up, and very informative... i think the one thing i learned from it is use what has the best performance for the price, and ease of installation.

I agree here I want the easiest install and best performance so gotta try to balance them out

[90fastgt]

very nice write up, and very informative... i think the one thing i learned from it is use what has the best performance for the price, and ease of installation.
I would have to agree an Shorties are definitely easier to install

[jktruckin06]

I would have to agree an Shorties are definitely easier to install

but what if you get a great deal on long tubes? are you willing to forgive ease of installation for saving money?

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

How often do you guys have to install/remove headers anyway? If there's as much as 5hp on the line, i'll deal with the hassle. It's not like i take them out or swap clutches even once a year. My headers have been in my car since early '04 and i've had them out ONE time when i put the 347 in.

[331lx]

How often do you guys have to install/remove headers anyway? If there's as much as 5hp on the line, i'll deal with the hassle. It's not like i take them out or swap clutches even once a year. My headers have been in my car since early '04 and i've had them out ONE time when i put the 347 in.

U make a very valid point here but also consider ground clearance issues on lowered street strip cars. I feel that longtubes have there place and shorties have there place. Drag car use longtubes and street occasional strip shorties.

[90fastgt]

but what if you get a great deal on long tubes? are you willing to forgive ease of installation for saving money?

my car came with bbk longtubes so i run them an will continue to run them just because im not goin to spend the money just for ease of installation of shorties so to answer your question yes i would buy longtubes if they where a better deal or visa versa im not saying longtubes are that big of a pain i have had mine out twice this year once for a clutch change an now for a new motor so there not terrible but are a little rougher to deal with then shorties

[90fastgt]

my longtubes drag on speed bumps but i had the car lowered but this year its goin to sit a little higher with the drag suspension so hopefully its not so bad

[duststang]

here is a nice comparison I came across LT vs Short stock 5.0 motor.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/29618_short_long_tube_headers_test/index.html

05-09 LT shoot out force induction.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_0904_s197_ford_mustang_headers/viewall.html

[331lx]

here is a nice comparison I came across LT vs Short stock 5.0 motor.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/29618_short_long_tube_headers_test/index.html

05-09 LT shoot out force induction.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_0904_s197_ford_mustang_headers/viewall.html

Nice comparison

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

here is a nice comparison I came across LT vs Short stock 5.0 motor.
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/29618_short_long_tube_headers_test/index.html



That's a cool comparison, but with a stock engine i'm not really surprised. The real bottleneck in that engine isn't the exhaust, it's the lower intake and then after that it's the heads.

Find me a dyno comparison of a 408 Windsor that pushes 600+hp with the same comparison and see which makes more power.

[331lx]

That's a cool comparison, but with a stock engine i'm not really surprised. The real bottleneck in that engine isn't the exhaust, it's the lower intake and then after that it's the heads.

Find me a dyno comparison of a 408 Windsor that pushes 600+hp with the same comparison and see which makes more power.

you beat me to it this is exactly what i was thinking. Could have did a better comparison i mean a stock 5.0 with a AOD:lol: