Looking for someone to degree some cams

[Evolved]

I do not have the needed items nor have I ever had to do it, but a buddy and I are putting Comp stage 2 cams in his 2000 GT and we are stuck at this point. We are looking for someone willing and who has the tools to help us this weekend. We have a Trick Flow adjustable crank gear on the way. Looking for someone who knows how to do it, we are in Wilmington, Thanks.

[Blackout]

Call Dirty Dog, he can help you

[zoomie]

agreed alan can help , he is very good at what he does too.

[draggin50]

Isnt he putting a short block together too? I know I seen some pictures he has with some nice parts.

[Mista Bone]

Evolved won't know how to feel out at Alan's shop :)

[Dirtyd0g]

Glad to see you bought the trick flow gears, if you had asked the other say I had a set in stock.
If you want to discuss it a little more in depth give me a call tomorrow at 513 898 1580
Alan

[Evolved]

Isnt he putting a short block together too? I know I seen some pictures he has with some nice parts.
That was my parts, we did that to mess with Eric from Sabina.

Alan I will try and give you a call this evening, I will be at work but will see what I can do. We have the cams in we just need to torque the cam capes and degree the cams, we were thinking about running them straight up but I have read of to many people smaking the pistons with the valves with these cams, so it is not a good idea.

[zoomie]

it is in my opinion a cam should always be degreed when you put it in ,even if its a stocker.
this is advice i got from doug at vanstrom performance.

[Dirtyd0g]

Comp puts in 5degree advance so the important thing is to check for ptv Then judge how much advance by ptv clearance. The more you can advance it the better the throttle response, but also the closer the valve will get to the piston.
Alan

[Evolved]

it is in my opinion a cam should always be degreed when you put it in ,even if its a stocker.
this is advice i got from doug at vanstrom performance.

That is the plan, just looking for someone to come to my place to do it. We have it ready to put back together once cams are degreed.

Also Alan if you want to sell the TF crank gear you have let me know I will buy it for my car for when I build my new Terminator bottom end.

[Evolved]

Evolved won't know how to feel out at Alan's shop :)

We were there this weekend to pick up some cam gears and bolts.

[Dirtyd0g]

Unfortunately traveling to do this kind of work is not in the plans it just takes too mcuh and is to easy to forget an important tool. I also like being able to use my shop and equipment. You have to have a good supply of compresed air to keep the cylinder under pressure so the valve won't drop when you remove the spring to install the lightweight check spring. I prefer to have the motor out of the car so I can precisely measure tdc. Trying to get the wheel locked into the right place doesn't work very well for changes because you have to take the chains off to move it and have to do it all over again . it can be done in the access hole.
The gears I was mentioning for convenience I am a trick flow dealer and usually keep them in stock. The small parts I can't give you a better price than anyone else so if you have anything else to order from summit and it saves you shipping that will be better than what I can do.

Alan

[Evolved]

Alan, I have a 60 gal. compressor, the valve springs are all changed, only thing left is to degree the cams. The valve springs were pretty easy to change just getting the keepers back in were a pita with the magnet that comes with the TF kit. I think I am just going to buy the stuff to degree the cams myself. Thanks everybody.

[cstreu1026]

Just an idea but maybe give the cams and gears to Alan to degree them on a engine thats on a stand then install them like Nick at MHS offers.

[Evolved]

Just an idea but maybe give the cams and gears to Alan to degree them on a engine thats on a stand then install them like Nick at MHS offers.
That is a good idea, if he has an engine torn down enough to do this.

[Dirtyd0g]

Alan, I have a 60 gal. compressor, the valve springs are all changed, only thing left is to degree the cams. The valve springs were pretty easy to change just getting the keepers back in were a pita with the magnet that comes with the TF kit. I think I am just going to buy the stuff to degree the cams myself. Thanks everybody.

You have to install a lightweight check spring on the valve you are measuring during the degreeing process.
Alan

[JIMS SVT]

Just an idea but maybe give the cams and gears to Alan to degree them on a engine thats on a stand then install them like Nick at MHS offers.

I just dont see that workin right on every motor. What if your heads was milled or the block decked? Different thickness of head gasket? I ndoubt it would come out right.

[Dirtyd0g]

I have my doubts on that setup as well. Nick claims it repeats but IMO the only right way to do is to do it on the motor it is running on. I am actually wanting to build a oil accumulator system to put oil pressure to the motor to make sure the tensioners are exactly where they should be. I'm thinking if I plugged the motor at the oil pump pickup and fed oil pressure through one of the galley plugs it shoudl work pretty well, use a BBC oil pump on a small motor to pump the oil from a pan that sits below the motor and all the oil from it that returns can just recycle. I have been thinking about it for a while but haven't done it yet.
Alan

[Evolved]

Well the guy who owns the car is willing to bring it down there as long as it can be done pretty quick, he does not want to leave his baby anywhere without him there. I just don't think my truck and trailer will fit in your driveway there Alan, my truck and trailer are pretty close to 50' long. This job has become a major PITA but there is no other way to learn. I don't feel like spending over 100.00 in parts just to do use them once.

We just prefered the job done at my place because that is where the car is torn down and we do not want to lose anything or forget something we need. I have all the tools except the degree wheel and related components. I also have to work this weekend so that makes it even harder having no time to load up a car drag it down there then probably have to unload it then reload it and so on.

[Evolved]

Well since I cannot edit my post, I will add this one.
I just went ahead and ordered the comp degree kit, I guess it is time to learn. Thanks guys for the help.

[Dirtyd0g]

The comp kit doesn't have the modular specific parts, should have gotten the trick flow kit. You need at least one solid lash adjuster and you have to make a spacer to center the wheel on your crank. The piston dead stop has to be machined to work as well. I have a comp kit I used for a long time I really like the trick flow kit, the case is really nice and it has all the modular specific stuff you need.
Alan

[Dirtyd0g]

Well the guy who owns the car is willing to bring it down there as long as it can be done pretty quick, he does not want to leave his baby anywhere without him there. I just don't think my truck and trailer will fit in your driveway there Alan, my truck and trailer are pretty close to 50' long. This job has become a major PITA but there is no other way to learn. I don't feel like spending over 100.00 in parts just to do use them once.

We just prefered the job done at my place because that is where the car is torn down and we do not want to lose anything or forget something we need. I have all the tools except the degree wheel and related components. I also have to work this weekend so that makes it even harder having no time to load up a car drag it down there then probably have to unload it then reload it and so on.

To be honest I don't want the car here, I would rather have the motor only. If it comes here I will pull the motor out. With the motor out I need about 3 hours to map tdc and check the cams setup, then set the timing and measure PTV on all for throttle response but not if it bends the valves. With a stock converter you need as much advance as you can run. With A PI intake it should run pretty good that way. Comp grind 5degrees of advance into the cams. I set the cams on my car retarded 3 degrees for my trick flow intake and 5000+ stall.
Alan

[Evolved]

To be honest I don't want the car here, I would rather have the motor only. If it comes here I will pull the motor out. With the motor out I need about 3 hours to map tdc and check the cams setup, then set the timing and measure PTV on all for throttle response but not if it bends the valves. With a stock converter you need as much advance as you can run. With A PI intake it should run pretty good that way. Comp grind 5degrees of advance into the cams. I set the cams on my car retarded 3 degrees for my trick flow intake and 5000+ stall.
Alan
He won't pull the motor. I cancelled the order for the comp cams kit. The trick flow kit I think is TFS9000, I am about to order it.
http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp?part=TFS%2D90000&autoview=sku

I think this is the worse cam experience I have ever had. But a good way to learn. I am probably driving you nuts Alan. Sorry for the hassle.

[Dirtyd0g]

Well it comes down to this. If you cut corners and miss your mark, then start the motor and bend valves you will learn. I d things the way I do them because I feel it is the right way to do it. I'm sure others have their own ways of doign it and find my way excessive. When I am done doing it my way I am 100% sure it will be right.
For example if I put all of my opinions aside, came to your place and degreed them, then on startup if bent valves would you blame me? Of course you would and you would be right to. Not because I didn't do my best but because I tried to make you happy by saving you work and time. In the past I have bent over backwards for people and done this kind of stuff for people. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it does not. If I do it the way I know is right I know it will work out. I would rather have someone happy that I got it right and the car ran like it was supposed to than be happy that I saved them a bunch of work and time. If you aren't willing to do whatever it takes to do the job right maybe you shouldn't do the job at all. A motor with stock cams still runs better than one with bent valves.
Alan

[Evolved]

I know what you are saying but it is not my call, it is not my car. He is just not wanting to pull the motor when many people have done it in the car. I just want the car done. I don't know what he is going to do yet. I am leaving it up to him.

[Dirtyd0g]

Well I can tell you I have learned from experience, degreeing and rushing don't coexist well, to do it yourself the first time you better plan a couple days to understand exactly what you are doing, what you are reading and where it should be. If the valves bend it will be done that is for sure.
Alan

[Evolved]

I am not in that big of a hurry, I am going to read, reread and watch tons of videos before I try it. I have a buddy who is very good on building motors I am going to see if he will overlook us, well if he has time. I will let you know how many valves we bend, hopefully zero. Thanks

[Dirtyd0g]

Well the goal of me telling you this is so that you will take it serious, you will learn what needs to be done and you will get it right the first time. Measuring tdc accurately is important. Just because the piston hit the piston stop does not make it tdc. You have to measure tdc from both side of the stroke and then draw a line in the middle. The goal on these shoudl be within 1/2 degree or better and you may still have to file the keyway and shim it to get there. The gears only mark every 2 degrees. I think you still have to machine the piston stop to work in stock heads, if you get down this way with it I can do it it only take a minute or 2 on the lathe. As far as I knwo there are no piston stops that work right on modulars. Trick flow probably intended theirs to work on their heads that have more threads.
Alan

[Evolved]

I am taking it serious, I think we are in over our heads, it seems to be a lot harder job than it sounds. Time will tell, I usually pick up on this stuff pretty quick.

[Brandon Alsept]

http://www.modularheadshop.com/Articles/Cam%20degree.htm

Read that and just take your time. Double check yourself and you will be fine. It isn't ancient voodoo or anything.

[Evolved]

http://www.modularheadshop.com/Articles/Cam%20degree.htm

Read that and just take your time. Double check yourself and you will be fine. It isn't ancient voodoo or anything.
Thanks Brandon, I printed it off. It does look pretty complex on a mod motor.

[Dirtyd0g]

I am taking it serious, I think we are in over our heads, it seems to be a lot harder job than it sounds. Time will tell, I usually pick up on this stuff pretty quick.

I agree but just take your time and make sure you are doing it right, too many people think they can cut corners to save time, trust me you do need the lightweight check spring. I have heard many people think they don't need to do it, you do.
Doing it in the car isn't impossible but you'll be going underneath over and over to read and markTDC. You won't have the heads off so finding tdc isn't as easy. I like to put a 1 inch or so spot of white out on the flexplate, make a pointer to point to it out of a piece of wire, then measure a few thousandths below tdc on both sides using an equal measurement then you can draw a line to find true tdc You'll find the piston is at tdc for more than 1 degree so measuring it this way is accurate.
Alan

[Dirtyd0g]

I meant to say I agree with Brandon on it not being the hardest job in the world. The worst part for a beginner is understanding what exactly you are doing to get the right results. After that you just needs the tools and patience to get it right. The job is much like setting up gears you have to do it until it is right.
Alan

[na svt]

When do you want this done?

[Evolved]

When do you want this done?

We are already doing it, putting the car back together tomorrow. I had to make a piston stop out of an old spark plug and weld a nut to it with a bolt since the Trick Flow piston stop will not work. Degreeing them in seems to be very simple just have to do it twice. I am going to degree the driver side tomorrow morning then drill and pin the crank gear.

[na svt]

We are already doing it, putting the car back together tomorrow. I had to make a piston stop out of an old spark plug and weld a nut to it with a bolt since the Trick Flow piston stop will not work. Degreeing them in seems to be very simple just have to do it twice. I am going to degree the driver side tomorrow morning then drill and pin the crank gear.
Do you have a drill bit hard enough to make a hole in the gear? I've installed a few of the tfs gears and have neither pinned or welded any of them. I have them in my 4v also.

I have all the degreeing stuff, if you need anything send me a pm.

[JIMS SVT]

.
I have all the degreeing stuff, if you need anything send me a pm.

I need help again lol

[na svt]

I need help again lol

We need to setup a date

[Evolved]

Do you have a drill bit hard enough to make a hole in the gear? I've installed a few of the tfs gears and have neither pinned or welded any of them. I have them in my 4v also.

I have all the degreeing stuff, if you need anything send me a pm.
I do not right now but lowes is really close to me. It is not my car and I did the work and do not want the crank key to break and let the gear spin free and destroy the guys engine.
I have read some guys do not pin or weld them with no problems and I have read others have had it happen. I also bought a Trick Flow degreeing kit. I wouldn't mind a little help to make sure I am doing it right but I am doing it tomorrow morning around 11 and most will be at work, and the help is totally up to you, I am about 45 min. from Fairborn though.

[Dirtyd0g]

If you get the tf gears marked where they need to be I can tig them together for you.
Alan

[Evolved]

If you get the tf gears marked where they need to be I can tig them together for you.
Alan

Alan, thanks for the offer, my nieghbor has a 300 amp tig welder and he has been a welder for over 30 years. I also have a few welders. Thanks.

[na svt]

I do not right now but lowes is really close to me. It is not my car and I did the work and do not want the crank key to break and let the gear spin free and destroy the guys engine.
I have read some guys do not pin or weld them with no problems and I have read others have had it happen. I also bought a Trick Flow degreeing kit. I wouldn't mind a little help to make sure I am doing it right but I am doing it tomorrow morning around 11 and most will be at work, and the help is totally up to you, I am about 45 min. from Fairborn though.

Give me a call if you have any problems. I'll PM my number

[Evolved]

Give me a call if you have any problems. I'll PM my number
Got it, I hope I have it all right so far. It seems pretty easy. The first time I set them, I did not know to put the solid adjustable lifter at .020 and degreed it, then went back in after doing both sides and reread it on the net and seen where it says to set it at .020 from the cam base circle. I redid the pass. side today and got that cam at dead on 109 on the intake, right where the cam card said centerline is.

[Evolved]

Got it all done, sounds pretty damn good, now just to get it tuned. We are going to shoot for getting it tuned this weekend.

[na svt]

Glad to hear it worked out. You should have taken the readings at .050", not .020". The reason for this is because Comp's cards show the .050" opening and closing points.

So how far was the passenger side cam retarded?

Did you set the solid adjuster to zero lash? That's required when degreeing using the .050" opening and closing method. It's not required with the centerline method though.

[Evolved]

Glad to hear it worked out. You should have taken the readings at .050", not .020". The reason for this is because Comp's cards show the .050" opening and closing points.

So how far was the passenger side cam retarded?

Did you set the solid adjuster to zero lash? That's required when degreeing using the .050" opening and closing method. It's not required with the centerline method though.

Passenger side was dead on 109 at retarding it 2*, drivers side was dead on a 0. My buddy who is very good at stuff like this stop by when he got off work and he knocked it out very quickly. When he did it he cut out a whole step and it worked. We did not beleive him so he showed us the normal way and we checked it and sure enough it was right.
We took the Reading at .050 and my buddy did it .030 and they were exactly the same if you are talking about going by the valve lift with the dial indicator. The .020 I was talking about was the lash adjuster setup. I read it was supposed to be adjusted at .020 between cam and lash adjuster. We drove the car around for a while yesterday and took it fairly easy to about 5800 and it came on strong about 4500 just like evryone says about these cams. The cams sound great.

[Evolved]

We took the car and had it dynoed today and it made 288hp and 297 tq. not bad for an all motor 4.6