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Thread: SCT getting fined

  1. #1
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    SCT getting fined

    https://fox17online.com/2018/09/24/c...ions-controls/

    I wonder how things will go with this?
    Joe

  2. #2
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    Aww dang

  3. #3
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    I saw this earlier today. Didn't read much into it. Im sure its not looking good for the tuner company's.
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    So I guess the disclaimer that the product is for "off-road use only" isn't enough to cover them.

    How are they stopping catalytic converters though?
    '17 WRX- 312/317awd

  5. #5
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    I've yet to see this anywhere else other than this link. I Googled it and came up empty. Waiting to see what else comes of it. You would think SEMA would step in somehow.
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    04 Comp Orange Cobra #3653

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    Be cautious of trusting a google search. There is evidence now that they tamper with the search algorithms to generate search results that are not always neutral. I have started using dyuckduckgo.com as my primary search engine first and bing.com second.

    I have heard of stirrings about this from a friend who is into diesel performance. There are tunes that are written by BD which eliminate exhaust parts and EGR unit as part of the tune. I have not come across this in generic tunes on gas powered vehicles unless the tune was specifically written for a vehicle in which the owner removed the emissions device(s).

    Below is a link from 9/25 on the matter out of Florida where Derive is based. IT reads a lot different than what appears to be an op-ed written by some tree hugging prude in Grand Rapids seeking 5 minutes of fame. In this article Derive has entered into agreement with EPA and mentions nothing of a fine.
    The article seems to be written based on facts and not emotion.

    https://www.bizjournals.com/southflo.../09/25/NY17615

  7. #7
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    This didn’t happen overnight. Enforcement actions by the EPA can take years to resolve and reach a settlement. Ultimately it’s probably cheaper to shell out he $7 million in fines than it is keep fighting it.
    They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Ben Franklin



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  8. #8
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    Thanks for the feedback. I got little worried that things will become more of a issue with people wanting to tune their cars.
    Joe

  9. #9
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    I dunno- I think the days of a consumer buying a tuner that can flash whatever custom tunes you want may be over. I wouldn't doubt if the PRP was no longer sold- you can easily turn off all kinds of emission equipment with it, and make it so it's not an issue passing smog tests either. I bet the EPA wants the tuning devices out of the public's hands first, then they will crack down on the shops later. We'll see.
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    Those days are probably coming.

    I remember reading an article back years ago in a Hot Rod magazine I think that talked of this very thing. I hate to think that the aftermarket automobile market may go away in the near future. Not necessarily go away, but limit what you can do to them while maintaining good emissions.
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    04 Comp Orange Cobra #3653

  11. #11
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    I guess the wealthy will have all the powerful cars in the future. Making a car your own will become harder to do. Maybe it’s time I learn on how to build an electric motored car unless they somehow outlaw that also.
    Joe

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    Much of this was created by the Diesel tuning side of the sport. EGR valves get removed to increase HP as well as efficiency. Unfortunately as anyone with any basic tuning knows, as an engine runs leaner it also then runs hotter. The byproduct of the combustion process is then not CO but NO Nitrogen Oxide not to be confused with giggle gas or nitrous. Attached is an actual document written and posted on the EPA's website regarding the matter. The fine was $300,000 not the higher amount that the local pinheads in the Grand Rapids local news station reported. Again much of the issue was the EGR system which most people don't bother on their combustion engine cars though it is very common to remove on a diesel application along with other scrubbing and filtration devices I know little about.

    While I do not think the sport is in immediate danger because of this, it is facing another threat down the road in about 4 more years. Ford intends on locking down the PCM so that there is no way to change the tune. Any attempt is said to brick the PCM putting the car into limp mode. Does this mean piggy back tuning may become the norm? That an aftermarket PCM may be the answer or that tuners may actually find a way to hack the PCM anyway? Who knows. But the threat is looming for those who like to buy the newer designs though it is currently only a rumor.

    Personally I would not be surprised to see a paradigm shift to electric cars. The torque they can make on demand is just stupid! And just think, no noise compared to combustion engines so potentially no curfews on tracks. But then again what is fun about a drag race with no noise, no smell of racing fuel, E85, oil and rubber? That's like a trip to the beach and everyone is wearing Puritan outfits.

    Have a great day.


    https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/deri...act-settlement

  13. #13
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    SCT getting fined

    [QUOTE=redfirepearlgt;818813]Much of this was created by the Diesel tuning side of the sport. EGR valves get removed to increase HP as well as efficiency. Unfortunately as anyone with any basic tuning knows, as an engine runs leaner it also then runs hotter. The byproduct of the combustion process is then not CO but NO Nitrogen Oxide not to be confused with giggle gas or nitrous. Attached is an actual document written and posted on the EPA's website regarding the matter. The fine was $300,000 not the higher amount that the local pinheads in the Grand Rapids local news station reported. Again much of the issue was the EGR system which most people don't bother on their combustion engine cars though it is very common to remove on a diesel application along with other scrubbing and filtration devices I know little about.



    So i can speak for the diesel guys. The egr removal is not generally for hp and efficiency. The exhaust gas on a diesel pre-turbo gets so hot that to use an egr (which was epa mandated) the manufacturers (all of them) used a cooler in between the exhaust and intake. This piece of aluminum or steel after 80-100k miles basically gets burned so thin that pin holes start. This pressurizes the cooling system which tends to further destroy the egr cooler, the degas tank and most of the rest of the cooling system. This reduces the efficiency of the system and causes the trucks to run hotter than they should while also misting antifreeze into the turbo. This makes the turbo less effective and the truck to use more fuel, creating more engine heat. Now we have the perfect recipe for head gasket failure and turbo failure. All of these modern egr equipped diesels use variable geometry turbos. The antifreeze goo takes about 2 weeks to ruin the mechanism on the vanes of the turbine. So what i am saying is that by about 100,000 miles the egr has destroyed about $10,000 worth of parts. When the diesel owner fixes this $10k problem he does not ever put the egr back on to ruin them again. I speak from experience. The sct and bully dog tuners allow this removal and the ability to turn the system off in the tune so the check engine light does not stay on after the destruction has been repaired.


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    Last edited by S281SC; 10-01-2018 at 08:58 PM.
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    Either way, the EPA proclaims that diesel engines produce way more NO (which can then become NO2 an irritant at 1ppm exposure) than a standard gasoline combustion engine due to the much higher operating temps. While the EGR system may play havoc on the twin turbo setup of a typical Ford Diesel engine, removal of this item rather than repairing it at the time of the twin turbo swap (cost my buddy about $2000 buying rebuilt turbos to do this in his garage when he called me to help) to save money is what has raised the dander on after market tuning by the EPA. IT's in the article. I'm not just making this up, read it. The EPA article repeatedly attacks EGR removal. Combustion engines operate at a much lower combustion temp AND the air/fuel is premixed unlike a diesel application so the NOx output is easier removed today not with an EGR valve (as some engines like the Coyote no longer have them) but through the catalytic converter. The same catalytic process to do this on a diesel is much more costly according to research.

    Regardless of the reason why this is done, the red flag was created through the EGR removal of diesel engines. I personally have no feeling one way or the other. While I believe in being a good steward to the planet as put here by my maker to do so, I also recognize that there are tree huggers out there exploiting processes to obtain control over others. The EPA started by exec order signed by Trick Dicky Nixon in the early 70's has taken full advantage of this. I have not researched deeply enough the output of NOx in various combustion engines to indicate if there is really enough to generate the level (aside from stickign one's face directly in the exhaust) to have concern over as lightning also produces NOx though the EPA seems to have no concerns with reducing lightning LOL!

    I equate much of the EPA over reach to this. In school my cheistry teacher was discussing with us how most thigns in extreme amounts can be harmful to the body. As example of the over reach he referenced Flouride in toothpaste. Flouride is harmful to the body. However two college students did a study on how much toothpaste would need to be consumed for hte human body to be at risk. The answer? Two semi trailer truck loads consumed in a 24 hour period.

    Again I believe in being steward of the planet. I don't hunt animals to extinction or simply for sport. I don't see the need to pollute openly simply because I can. But at the same time I don't feel the need to go back to the stone age way of living to protect the planet from green house gases. A volcanic eruption destroys ozone, but somehow the freaks who scream green house gas don't want to admit this or the bigger fact that it replenishes itself. We aren't in control, He is. We are simply put here to use the planet in moderation. No need to being reasonable about the environment into a tree hugging cult following.

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    You did blame diesel guys for just wanting more hp. That is ridiculous. It is purely a function of economy. And not a single guy on this forum has left their mustang emissions systems untouched. I would have much preferred to leave my truck stock than spend $10000 for 50hp achieved with the sct stock tunes. But head gaskets(and studs to remove the TTY bolts), machining of the head surface due to pitting where the gasket failed, cooling system repair, turbo repair, etc gain zero hp makes the epa mandated egr valve’s presence irrelevant to me. I am not doing that work again. And i am not out blowing black smoke at every traffic light because i removed it. Does it let off more NOx? I couldn’t care less. Do i love the planet my Savior provided us? Absolutely. When i have to cut down a dead ash tree on my property i plant two more to make up for it. But i am still not putting a junk part back on my truck to destroy $10000 worth of new parts. Our country has stopped fighting for what makes sense and we should stand up against that sort of hypocrisy. They say it is to protect our future but is purely greed and control. The production of the gasoline and the refining process is far worse for the environment than the exhaust from my truck. Fix that process first, then come talk to me about my lack of egr. They just want to get the money from sct/bully dog who has made a killing fixing the epa’s mistake. And i am a chemist and can spot the BS in their logic a mile away. Just sayin.


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    2005 F250 6.0 powerstroke - tuned, swamps FICM, 4" turbo back, egr delete, studded, tow rig & DD

  16. #16
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    ^^^ Truf!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by S281SC View Post
    You did blame diesel guys for just wanting more hp. That is ridiculous. It is purely a function of economy. And not a single guy on this forum has left their mustang emissions systems untouched. I would have much preferred to leave my truck stock than spend $10000 for 50hp achieved with the sct stock tunes. But head gaskets(and studs to remove the TTY bolts), machining of the head surface due to pitting where the gasket failed, cooling system repair, turbo repair, etc gain zero hp makes the epa mandated egr valve’s presence irrelevant to me. I am not doing that work again. And i am not out blowing black smoke at every traffic light because i removed it. Does it let off more NOx? I couldn’t care less. Do i love the planet my Savior provided us? Absolutely. When i have to cut down a dead ash tree on my property i plant two more to make up for it. But i am still not putting a junk part back on my truck to destroy $10000 worth of new parts. Our country has stopped fighting for what makes sense and we should stand up against that sort of hypocrisy. They say it is to protect our future but is purely greed and control. The production of the gasoline and the refining process is far worse for the environment than the exhaust from my truck. Fix that process first, then come talk to me about my lack of egr. They just want to get the money from sct/bully dog who has made a killing fixing the epa’s mistake. And i am a chemist and can spot the BS in their logic a mile away. Just sayin.


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    I have no axe to grind with diesel trucks aside from what their nobby tires do to the track surface on T/T nights, and even that is of little concern these days.

    I understand that the soot itself is not the issue and it is of little concern to me either. I'm observant enough to know these days to roll up my window when I pull up next to some 30ft long, 10ft tall, lift kitted diesel with a 24" diameter chrome exhaust tip because more than likely he is just looking to belch soot in my window. Personally I think its funny when these guys casually roll up next to a BMW with the window down and spool the truck up just before the light turns green filling the BMW with soot. But chances are it's those BMW owners with the windows down that complained loud enough to the government to raise the awareness that initially led the EPA to investigate.

    I have no data to know how much NO (Nitric Oxide) a diesel engine generates though I know from brief reading it is 2-3 times more than a gas engine. Unfortunately that became the target for the EPA regardless if the levels being generated at the tail pipe of a diesel truck are above NIOSH established safety levels or not. Unfortunately the EPA hangs its hat on ozone depletion theory and greenhouse gas theory (though they call it fact) which is a bunch of smoke and mirror bologna. But it's what they target and when they get complaints from their high browed, white collar, college alumni, friends and advocates to take action in such cases.

    Here is what I know about NO2 (a byproduct of NO after it hits the atmosphere) from personal experience and a little refresher reading. When released into the atmosphere it will bond with Oxygen creating NO2 - Nitrogen dioxide. This would likely be O3 as ozone is less stable than O2. I am sure you understand better than I do the bonding and/or electron shell configurations that would support this. NIOSH has determined that 20ppm is lethal to humans. That is quite a bit of NO2 in a given space/atmosphere. A continued exposure over 15 minutes (STEL) has been determined unsafe if 5ppm is weight measured over that time. All a tree hugger needs to know is that a reaction process can pull an Oxygen molecule from O3 (known as Ozone depletion) and that is all they need for one of their two cardinal sin theories to be broken and then go on a mission to crush the culprit responsible for killing the planet. At their extreme this is ridiculousness and a power reach.

    If you will take the time to digest my comments you see that I have no love for the EPA or those liberal whacko hippie freaks that make up the institution. If given the chance and he were still alive I would kick Richard Nixon in the nuts for signing the executive order that started that power grabbing group of tree hugging hippie freaks. These tree worshiping druid types have been over reaching their power grab for decades and use extreme biased and manipulated data in many cases to impose laws and mandates and standards that would otherwise be of little issue. There is no doubt to that. They want to claim the Ozone is being depleted in their data, but they fail to also state that lightning strikes replenish ozone. They never mention that volcanic eruptions destroy large amounts of ozone probably because they would then have to explain how the ecosystem God created replenishes it in much the same way it is replenished from the pollution generated by cars, trucks, lawn mowers, weed eaters, air conditioners still running F-22and yes even alfalfa eating cattle when they fart.


    As for not conforming to EPA emission standards on modified cars, I admit I have taken the cats off of two vehicles. I won't make that mistake again as I found in both cases very little improvement on ET's and MPH was worth the money and the stink. My 14 made sub 11 passes with the cats on it. Removal of those cats and retuning gained little and picked up maybe 1 tenth. Just not worth it for a car I drive to the track and drive around town. Trailered race cars like yours that are not street driven are legally allowed to be modified for offroad hobbies. You trailer it in, you race it, you trailer it home. Mine have always been what I call 'HYBRIDS' used more for street driving and the occasional track pass on a TT night. I personally don't like getting in my car and taking a drive to return home smelling like exhaust fumes. The cats are great for this. AND I don't have to listen to my wife grumble about the smell. HAPPY WIFE HAPPY LIFE! So I won't be making that mistake again. Has nothing to do with emission compliance. That would indicate that I align wit hEPA mentality. I do not. I do apply common sense to stewarding the planet as I am assigned to do by the All Mighty as is everyone.....in moderation and not for the sake of creating a cult following and power grabbing.

    Being a chemist you should have been able to read my statement and see that I was not aligning with the whacks at the EPA. But you chose to allow what may possibly be a guilty conscience take over your emotions in your response. That is okay because everyone has gone off half cocked now and then including me when their sport of interest is attacked by these loons. While I am not a big shot college graduate I do remember enough from 2 years of chemistry class in high school taken over 35 years ago that 6.02X10^23 power is 1 mole. I have since worked in safety instrumentation dealing with monitoring toxic and explosive gases. I have done titrations (sp?) requiring me to do mole problems to determine how much of a compound I need to put in a 3 litre bag filled with air to calibrate an explosive or toxic sensor for a customer. While I am not a Bona Fide college man with a BS degree to be a chemist I am able to understand just enough to know the difference between BS and real data though I am not expert enough as you may be to determine down to the molecule level what is and isn't BS along with the ability to prove it.

    My references have been with regard to NIOSH standards which apply to human safety. I don't give a flip less about EPA standards which are fabricated to do their work for them as they attempt to lay down the law. As long as the environment meets or slightly exceeds safety standards for life that is what is sufficient. Extreme idiotic theories and mandates designed to chase a hippie dream is what the EPA is all about. Have they done some good? Yes. But they have out grown their place and become extremists never being satisfied with the work done to date. We have a cleaner planet because of them as compared to the industrial age of the 19th century. But there comes a point that microns of a substance are not relevant. They should be satisfied wit hthe work done here, accept redirection in areas where they have gone too far with their agendas, and start focusing on China and other countries who need direction in this area.

    My uncle drives a PRIUS for his work. On the bumper are NRA stickers, MAGA again stickers, Don't TREAD ON ME stickers, RETIRED NAVY VETERAN stickers, Pro Life stickers, and others that relate to conservative and Christian values. He was read his rights by a left liberal whacko some years back at a gas station for being a hypocrite because he was a conservative driving a hybrid. His response? "Ma'am, since when do liberals have a monopoly on being a steward to the planet? And since when is it that only liberals are allowed to save money by driving economically responsible vehicles? I believe in saving money. I believe in pollution control and protecting nature within the realm of common sense. I don't hunt animals to extinction, and I only hunt what I will eat. I don't believe in trophy hunting. I don't believe in belching pollution from my car or from factories or power plants, but I don't see the need to return to a horse and buggy state to resolve pollution issues. Have a nice day."


    Likewise Steve, have a nice week.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfirepearlgt View Post
    Personally I think its funny when these guys casually roll up next to a BMW with the window down and spool the truck up just before the light turns green filling the BMW with soot. But chances are it's those BMW owners with the windows down that complained loud enough to the government to raise the awareness that initially led the EPA to investigate.
    Ding. ding- we have a winner.
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